← 返回任务列表

2003年股东大会 · 巴芒再次警告,衍生品可能导致金融危机

54 段 · 3 位说话人 · 原片 7:44
M1
M10:00

早上好。

Good morning.

我是 Whitney Tilson,来自 New York City 的一名股东。

I'm Whitney Tilson, a shareholder from New York City.

当时在 Berkshire 的忠实支持者当中,大家议论很多,因为你采取了一个我认为前所未有的做法——把你那封发表在 Fortune 上的年度信的一部分提前发布出来,而那部分内容主要讲的是衍生品的危险,你还把它称为金融大规模杀伤性武器。

There was a lot of talk among the Berkshire faithful when you took what I believe was the unprecedented step of pre-releasing a portion of your annual letter published in Fortune, which focused primarily on the dangers of derivatives, which you called financial weapons of mass destruction.

关于这个,我有两个问题。

I have 2 questions related to this.

第一个问题是问你的,Buffett 先生。

The first to you, Mr. Buffett.

你能不能给我们讲讲,那篇 Fortune 文章是怎么来的?

Could you tell us the story of how the Fortune article came about?

你是不是想特别提醒大家注意某件你强烈认为会给我们的金融体系带来巨大风险的事情?

Were you trying to draw extra attention to something that you feel strongly is a great risk to our financial system?
M2
M20:29

是的。

Yes.
M1
M10:31

第二个问题是问你们两位的:自从你们就衍生品发出警告之后,整个信贷市场总体上出现了一波大涨。

And the second question to both of you: since your warning about derivatives, there's been a huge rally in the credit markets in general.

这反映的是投资者对这些系统性风险并不担心,还是说这是由其他因素造成的?

Does this reflect investors' lack of concern for these systemic risks, or is it caused by other factors?
M3
M30:45

对,第一个问题——我的朋友 Carol Loomis 是 Berkshire report 的编辑,没有她,我们这份报告是出不来的。

Yeah, the first question—my friend Carol Loomis is the editor of the Berkshire report, and we wouldn't get out the report without her.

我是说,除了是全世界最出色的商业作者之外,她也是全世界最厉害的编辑。

I mean, she is the world's greatest editor, in addition to being the world's greatest business writer.

我把这份报告交给她编辑的时候——顺便说一句,退回来可不是一点标记都没有——她和我聊到,我当时很希望把关于衍生品的那一部分,因为我觉得它值得拥有更广泛的——我希望它能有比 Berkshire 年报更广泛的受众。

When I gave the report to her to edit, and it did not come back unmarked, I might add, she and I talked about—I was interested in having the section on derivatives because I thought it had a broader—I hoped it would have a broader audience than just the Berkshire annual report.

而且我觉得把那部分发表出去,基本上除了 Gen Re 参与其中的那段历史之外,和 Berkshire 的业务本身并没有什么关系,所以就 Berkshire 自身业绩的信息公平披露来说,这样做并不会有任何不妥。

And I felt that publishing it, which had no relationship to the Berkshire business basically except the history of Gen Re's involvement, would not be in any way compromising fair disclosure in terms of Berkshire's results itself.

所以,把它放在 Fortune 上发表,最主要的原因就是我希望它能借助 Fortune 触达更广泛的读者。

So the primary reason for having it in Fortune was I hoped for a wider audience, basically, by having it in Fortune.

而且,你知道,Charlie 和我都认为,虽然概率不高,但也不是低到可以忽略不计——是不高——在未来某个时候,也许是三年后,也许是五年后,也许是二十年后,也很可能永远不会发生,衍生品可能会在很大程度上加剧某种系统性问题,而那个问题甚至可能是由别的现象引发的。

And, you know, Charlie and I think there is a low but not insignificant probability, and low, that sometime, maybe in 3 years, maybe in 5 years, maybe in 20 years, and very possibly never, that derivatives could accentuate in a major way a systemic problem that might even arise from some other phenomenon.

而我们觉得,这一点并没有被充分认识到。

And we think that's inadequately recognized.

我们认为,随着衍生品变得越来越复杂、使用越来越广泛,这个问题也会不断扩大。

We think the problem grows as derivatives get more complex and as their usage increases.

所以,这算是一次提醒,我们希望这是一种比较温和的警钟,提醒金融界这些东西可能会带来非常棘手的麻烦。

So it was a call, what we hoped was a mild wake-up call, to the financial world that these things could be very troublesome.

当然,过去两年里,我们已经在能源领域看到过这种情况。

And of course, we saw it in the energy field in the last 2 years.

它几乎毁掉了,或者说确实毁掉了,一些本来根本不该被毁掉的机构。

It almost destroyed, or destroyed, certain institutions that never should have been destroyed.

我们也在一九九八年看到过,呃,整个金融体系几乎陷入瘫痪,尤其是在信贷市场上,你知道,这是由一家公司的行为引发的。那家公司的问题并不完全是由衍生品造成的,但如果没有衍生品,它也不会陷入那么大的麻烦。

And we also saw in 1998, uh, the whole financial system almost become paralyzed, particularly in the credit markets, you know, by the action of a firm which was not solely based on derivatives, but would not have gotten into as much trouble as it did without derivatives.

所以,这是一个谁都不太知道该怎么处理的话题。

So, it's a subject that no one quite knows what to do with.

Charlie 和我也不知道该怎么去监管它,但我们觉得,在观察这个领域里针对单个公司的风险方面,我们是有一些经验的;同时,我们也认为自己对可能出现的系统性问题有一些洞察。

Charlie and I would not know how to regulate it, but we think we have had some experience in seeing both the firm-specific dangers in that field, and we think we have some insight into the systemic problems that could arise.

你知道,人们,人们真的是,呃,不到事情发生,他们是不愿意去想这些的。

You know, that people, people really, uh, they don't want to think about it until it happens.

但金融世界里有些事情,哪怕发生的概率很低,也最好在它发生之前就先想清楚。

But there are some things in the financial world that are better thought of before they happen, even if they're low probabilities.

而我们在 Berkshire 的层面上,一直都在思考这种低概率事件。

And we're thinking about low probabilities all the time in terms of Berkshire.

我的意思是,我们不希望 Berkshire 出任何重大的差错。

I mean, we don't want anything to go wrong in a big way at Berkshire.

所以,所以我觉得,我们因此会去思考很多很多人根本不会去想的事情。

And, and we therefore, I think, think about things that a good many people don't think about.

仅仅因为我们会为此担心。

Simply because we worry about that.

当我们戴上社会责任这顶帽子来看的时候,我们会从一种像 derivatives 这样的东西,对全球金融体系会有什么影响这个角度去想。

And when we get our social hats on, we think about it in terms of something like derivatives for financial systems of the world.

而且我们在 Salomon 和 Gen Re 两边都对此有过一些亲身经验。

And we have had some experience at both Salomon and at Gen Re.

Charlie 当时在 Salomon 的审计委员会,他在审计委员会里看到了一些跟交易本身,尤其是 derivatives 有关的情况,这让他心里直犯嘀咕:人们到底为什么要干这种事?

And Charlie was on the audit committee at Salomon, and he saw some things in the audit committee in relationship to trading itself and derivatives in particular that made him wonder why in the world people were doing these sort of things.

这个我让 Charlie 来多展开讲讲。

I'll let Charlie expand on that.
M2
M24:43

对,在工程领域,人们会给系统留很大的安全边际,nuclear power plants 算是最极端的例子。

Yeah, in engineering, people put big margins of safety into systems, atomic power plants being the extreme example.

可是在金融世界里,尤其是 derivatives 这块,就好像根本没人把安全当回事。

And in the financial world, in derivatives, it's as though nobody gave a damn about safety.

然后他们就任由它在使用规模、交易笔数和交易体量上,一路膨胀、膨胀、再膨胀。

And, and they just let it balloon and balloon and balloon in, in usage and number of trades and size of trades.

而且,这种膨胀还被一种虚假的会计处理推波助澜,人们假装自己赚到了其实根本没赚到的钱。

And, uh, and that ballooning is aided by this false accounting where people are pretending to make money they're not really making.

我认为这非常危险,而且在这件事上我比 Warren 还要悲观一点。要是我接下来再活五年到十年,却没有看到某种重大的爆雷发生,那我反而会很惊讶。

I regard that as very dangerous, and I'm more negative than Warren in the sense that I'll be amazed if I live another 5 or 10 years if we don't have some significant blowup.
M3
M35:39

它们一直被宣传,有时候还是一些相当有影响力的人在宣传,说它们能帮系统里的参与者转移风险,也能降低整个系统的风险。

They've been advertised, and sometimes by some in a fairly prominent way, they've been advertised as shedding risk for participants in the system and reducing risk for the system.

但我要说的是,我认为它们早就已经越过了那个能降低系统风险的点,现在它们是在放大风险。

And I, I would say that I think they have long crossed the point where they decrease risks to the system, and now they enhance risks.

因为事实是,Coca-Cola Company 完全可以承受它面临的外汇风险,或者利率风险,诸如此类的风险。

Because you've—the truth is, the Coca-Cola Company can bear the foreign exchange risks that they run, or the interest rate risks that they run, and all of that sort of thing.

但是当 Coca-Cola Company 开始把这些风险转手出去,而世界上其他大公司也都这么做,并且最后都集中到相对少数几个参与者手里时,你其实是在加剧这个系统里原本就存在的风险。

But when the Coca-Cola Company starts laying those off, and every other company in the world, major company, does, with just relatively few players, you have now intensified the risks that exist in the system.

你根本没有把风险消掉。

You have not shed risk at all.

你只是把它转移了,而且是转移给了非常少数几个玩家,而这些玩家彼此之间又存在巨大的相互依赖。

You have transferred it, and you have transferred it to very few players, and those players have huge interdependencies with each other.

而且在某种程度上,central banks 以及所有类似的机构,也都会变得很脆弱。

And to some extent, central banks and all of those similar institutions are vulnerable.

会暴露在这些机构自身弱点的冲击之下。

To the weaknesses of those institutions.

Charlie 和我当年在 Salomon 的时候,你知道,他们特别不喜欢我们提起——所以后来我们也就不提了——说我们已经大到不能倒。

When Charlie and I were at Salomon, you know, they hated it if we brought up—and so therefore we didn't do it—that we were too big to fail.

但事实是,如果当时 Salomon 真倒了,给整个系统其他部分带来的问题,很可能会相当严重。

But the truth was that if Salomon failed at that time, the problems for the rest of the system could well have been significant.

那会严重到什么程度,谁也说不准,但很可能会非常重大。

They might have been—who knows exactly what they would have been, but they could have been quite significant.

当你开始把风险集中到那些高杠杆机构身上,而这些机构又彼此交织,只跟少数几家类似机构互相连着,大家承担着同样的风险,交易部门也都有同样的动机,去接越来越多稀奇古怪、越来越复杂的东西,因为这样他们就能立刻记更多利润,你就是在主动招致危险。

And when you start concentrating risks in institutions which are highly leveraged, and who intersect with a few other institutions like that, all bearing same risks, all having the same motivations in the trading departments to take on more and more esoteric things because they can book more and more immediate profits, you are courting danger.

这也就是为什么我这次专门写了这个。

And that's why I wrote about it this time.

而且我得说,这不是预言,这是警告。

And I—it's not a prediction, it's a warning.

好,第十个问题,答完这个我们就休息吃午饭。

And number 10, and then we will break for lunch right after this.