M22:09
董事会里的问题在于，到什么程度——你得明白，这里面一部分是商业问题，一部分是社会层面的问题。
The question in the boardroom is to what extent— and you have to understand, it's partly a business situation, it's partly a social situation.
问题是，参与其中的这些人，在多大程度上会像所有者那样思考；还有，他们对商业是否足够懂，以至于就算他们想像所有者那样思考，做出来的决定也真的是靠谱的？
The question is, to what extent do the people that are participating there think like owners, and, and whether they know enough about business so that even if they're trying to think like owners, that their decisions will be any good?
Charlie 和我都在实行双重投票权的公司董事会里待过。
And Charlie and I have been on boards of companies with dual voting.
Berkshire 也是这样，虽然那一点点差别小到其实没什么实际影响。
Berkshire has that, although it's so minor that it doesn't really make any difference.
不过，我们也在别的董事会里待过，而我从来没真正看到过，董事们是靠什么样的投票机制进入董事会的，这件事会让他们的行为有什么不同。
But we've been on other boards that I have never really seen any difference in behavior based on the nature of the votes that got them into the boardroom.
但是，差别确实非常大。
But there's an enormous difference.
我觉得，如果你这些年一直观察董事会里的情况，你会非常震惊。
I think you'd be blown away if you watched boardrooms over the years.
差别大得惊人，真正体现在会议室里这些人的商业判断力，还有他们在整个过程中到底有多大程度是在像所有者那样思考。
There's just an enormous difference in terms of really the business savvy of the people in the room, the degree to which they are thinking like owners as they go along.
而我，我没看到——我不知道双重投票权，或者没有双重投票权，这件事跟那些差别到底能有多大关系。
And I, I've seen no— I don't know the dual voting or the lack of dual voting really is going to have very much to do with that.
关键在于——我以前也提过——就像 Charlie 说的，公司治理领域总有各种时髦风潮，但董事会的工作，是找到合适的 CEO，还要防止这个 CEO 越界，因为有些人能力很强，但还是想把一切都据为己有。
The, the key— I've mentioned it in the past— there's all these fashions, as Charlie says, in corporate governance, but the job of the board is to get the right CEO, to prevent that CEO from overreaching, because sometimes you have some people that are very able but they still want to take it all for themselves.
但如果他们什么都不拿，可却是个错误的 CEO，那照样还是一场灾难。
But if they take nothing and they're the wrong CEO, there's, there's, there's still a disaster.
所以，低薪本身不是标准，你要的是合适的 CEO。
So low pay itself is not the criteria, but you want the right CEO.
你不会希望他们越权伸手太长。
You do not want them overreaching.
然后我觉得，董事会在重大的收购案上需要行使独立判断，因为我认为 CEO——甚至我觉得 CEO，哪怕是聪明的 CEO——在做收购决定的时候，很多时候受到的驱动并不完全是理性的原因。
And then I think the board needs to exercise independent judgment on important acquisitions because I think CEOs, even— I think CEOs, even smart CEOs, are motivated frequently in acquisitions by other than rational reasons.
在这三个领域里，嗯，你知道，美国的董事们——我不认为他们这些年来在这方面交出过多么出色的成绩单，不管是在 dual system 的地方，还是别的地方。
And in those 3 areas, uh, you know, American directors have— I don't think they've given a tremendous account of themselves in, in recent years, whether at dual system places or otherwise.
在我看来，改善 corporate governance 唯一的办法，就是那些非常大的股东开始真正盯紧我刚才提到的这些问题，看它们有没有被妥善处理。
The only cure to better corporate governance, in my view, is that if the very large shareholders start really zeroing in on whether those questions I just mentioned are being addressed properly.
如果他们老是在这些边缘问题上打转，你知道，他们是会玩得很开心，也会上报纸。
If they go on all these peripheral issues, you know, they have a lot of fun and they get in the papers.
你知道，他们会搞一些小清单，还能打分评级之类的。
You know, they have little checklists and they can issue grades and all that.
但这对让 American business 运转得更好，根本起不了什么作用。
It isn't going to do anything in terms of making American business work better.
但如果前八大或者前十大股东群体，如果那些真正的大型机构投资者说，你知道，这个薪酬方案根本讲不通，所以我们不会投票支持这些董事，而且这就是我们不投他们票的原因，那你就会看到变化。
But if the 8 or 10 largest shareholder groups, if the really large institutional investors say, you know, this compensation plan doesn't make any sense and we're not voting for the directors, and here's why we're not voting for the directors, you'd get change.
但到目前为止，他们一直不愿意这么做。
But so far they've been unwilling to do that.
这得靠大股东。
It takes the big shareholders.
这不是靠一群小股东结盟，或者靠有人把东西塞进投票表决里，就能办到的。
It's not going to be done by any coalition of small shareholders or people sticking things on ballots.
但这个国家的大股东们，你知道，基本上他们——有些人甚至把自己的投票权都外包出去了。
But the big shareholders of this country, you know, basically they've— some of them have farmed out their voting even.
我，我，我知道这事的时候很吃惊，原来不少非常大的机构投资者，实际上就是——实际上就是把他们的投票流程直接交给别人了。
I, I, I was amazed to find that out, that a number of very large institutional investors have actually just— have actually just turned their voting process over to somebody else.
他们不想像所有者那样去思考。
They don't want to think like owners.
而且，嗯，你知道，他们付出的代价——我们，我们所有人都在为这件事承担代价。
And, uh, you know, they pay— we, we all bear the penalty for that.
第六。
Number 6.