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1999年股东大会 · 巴菲特芒格谈长期资本公司的倒闭及带来的启发

97 段 · 3 位说话人 · 原片 12:17
M1
M10:00

早上好,Buffett 先生,Munger 先生。

Good morning, Mr. Buffett and Mr. Munger.

感谢你们再次举办这么精彩的周末活动。

Thank you for hosting another wonderful weekend.

我叫 Che-Wei Wu。

My name is Che-Wei Wu.

我是就住在 Omaha 的一名非常自豪的股东。

I'm a proud shareholder from right here in Omaha.

去年最有意思的一条金融新闻之一,就是对冲基金 Long-Term Capital 差点倒闭。

One of the most interesting financial news developments this previous year was the near collapse of the hedge fund Long-Term Capital.

我想听听您和 Munger 先生的看法:这些私人合伙机构是怎么运作的,你们怎么看 Long-Term Capital 这笔交易,以及 Fed 出手救它这件事。

I'd like to get your thoughts and Mr. Munger's thoughts about how these private partnerships operate, what your thoughts are about the Long-Term Capital deal, and also the Fed's intervention to save it.
M2
M20:32

对,就是——你们在那部影片里看到的那个时候,Yellowstone 背景里 Old Faithful 正在喷发,Bill 一边想让我看那个,一边我还在打电话,那趟行程里有很大一部分时间,我都在跟 New York 通话,想为我们姑且称作 LTCM、也就是 Long-Term Capital Management 的东西出个报价。

Yeah, that— in that movie you saw, the time when Yellowstone was— when Old Faithful was performing in the background, and Bill was trying to get me to watch that while I was on the phone, a lot of that trip was spent talking to New York about making a bid for what we'll call LTCM, Long-Term Capital Management.

顺便说一句,那张照片的标题叫作“老头和间歇泉”。

And then the caption on that photo, incidentally, is known as the Geezer and the Geyser.

我们当时在——我们是从 Alaska 出发的,坐着船顺着那些峡谷往下走,船长还在说,来吧,咱们去那边看看海狮。

And we were up in— we started in Alaska, and we were going down these canyons in a boat, and the captain's saying, now, you know, let's go over there and look at the sea lions.

我就说,咱们还是待在现在这个地方吧,这里还能连上卫星线路,因为我一直都想打电话。

And I say, let's stay right where we are where we've got a satellite channel, because I was trying to talk on the phone all the time.

Charlie 当时在 Hawaii,而那整段时间里,我们始终没机会通上话。

Charlie was in Hawaii, and we never did get a chance to talk during that whole period.

我也不想拿一个像给一千多亿美元证券资产出价这种小事去打扰他,而且我也找不到他。

I didn't want to bother him with a little thing like a bid for $100 billion-plus of securities, and I couldn't find him.

所以——我们当时所处的情况很尴尬,不利于推进这件事。

So it was— we were in an awkward place to pursue that.

我觉得有可能,要是那段时间我人在 New York,或者 Charlie 人在 New York,我们的报价也许就会被接受。

I think it's possible that if I'd been in New York or Charlie had been in New York during that period, that our bid might have been accepted.

就在最近三四天前,一个特别委员会发布了一份报告,代表的机构有 SEC、Fed,我想还有 Treasury 和 CFTC。

There was just a report published within the last 3 or 4 days by a special committee representing the SEC, the Fed, I think the Treasury, and the CFTC.

我想这四家我应该没记错。

I think I'm right on those 4.

那份报告稍微描述了一点导致这次出价的前后经过。

And it describes just a tiny bit of the events leading to the bid.

报告里提到了我们——它提到,而且我记得是在第十四页,说到我们的那笔交易告吹了。

It referred to our— it referred, and on page 14, I remember, it talked about our transaction unraveling.

但不是从我们这边告吹的。

It didn't unravel from our side.

我的意思是,我们对一千多亿美元的资产负债表资产,以及数千亿美元、实际上超过一万亿美元的衍生品合约,给出了一个正式报价。

I mean, we made a firm bid for, for $100 billion-plus of balance sheet assets and many hundreds of billions, in fact over a trillion, of derivative contracts.

而且,你知道,当时那个市场里价格波动非常剧烈,面前又摆着这么大体量的资产。

And, you know, this was in a market where, where prices were moving around very dramatically, and with that bulk of assets there.

我们觉得,在那四十五分钟到一个小时的时间窗口里,我们给出的报价已经相当不错了。

We thought we made a fairly good bid for a 45-minute or hour period.

我觉得别人根本不会出这样的价。

I don't think anybody else would have made the bid.

但不管怎么说,LTCM 那边的人认为他们不能接受这个报价,所以 New York Fed 就召集了一批人,主要是一些投资银行,到 Fed 那边去。

But in any event, the people at LTCM took the position that they could not accept that bid, and therefore the New York Fed had a group of people, largely investment banks, there at the Fed.

到了那天下午,面对 LTCM 不能或者不愿接受我们报价的局面,他们安排了另一套接管方案,额外注入了资金。

And that afternoon, faced with the prospect that LTCM could not or would not accept our bid, they arranged another takeover arrangement where additional money was put in.

如果你去读那份报告,会觉得很有意思,那份报告是由这四家非常有分量的机构共同整理的。

It's interesting, if you read that report, which is put together by these 4 very eminent bodies.

我想第一页上就写着,所谓第一家 hedge fund——这个词通常就是用来指像 LTCM 这样的机构——第一家 hedge fund 是一九四九年成立的。

And I think on the first page it says that the first so-called hedge fund, which is the term generally applied to entities like LTCM, first hedge fund was set up in 1949.

而这话我大概已经读到过或者听到过五十次了,尤其是在过去这一年里。

And I probably read that or heard that 50 times in the last, particularly in the last year.

当然,这根本不对。

And of course, that's not true at all.

而且我以前甚至已经指出过一两次了,Ben Graham 和 Jerry Newman 在二十年代就已经有一个非常典型的 hedge fund。

And I've even pointed this out once or twice before, but Ben Graham had, and Jerry Newman had, a classical hedge fund back in the '20s.

我当时在——我同时为一家公司工作,叫 Graham-Newman Corp.,那是一家受监管的投资公司;另外还为 Newman and Graham 工作,那是一个投资合伙企业,我记得是按百分之二十参与利润分成,完全就是现在所谓 hedge fund 的那种实体。

And I worked for— I worked dually for a company called Graham-Newman Corp., which was a regulated investment company, and Newman and Graham, which was an investment partnership with a, I think, a 20% participation in profits, and exactly the sort of entity that today is called a hedge fund.

所以如果你在什么地方读到,说 hedge fund 这个概念起源于一九四九年,大概是从 A.W.

So if you, if you read anyplace that the hedge fund concept originated in 1949, presumably with A.W.

Jones 开始的——那、那不是准确的历史。

Jones, it's a— it's not an accurate history.

现在已经有——我以前管过一个东西,通常大家也会把它叫做 hedge fund。

There are now— I ran something that would generally be called a hedge fund.

我自己不喜欢那样去想。

I didn't like to think of it that way.

我把它叫做投资合伙,但别人也会把它归类成 hedge fund。

I called it an investment partnership, but it would have been termed a hedge fund.

Charlie 也管过一个,大概是从一九六三年到七十年代中期左右,他们现在已经大量繁殖开来了。

Charlie ran one from about, what, 1963 to mid-'70s or thereabouts, and they have proliferated in a big way.

你——他眨眼了吗?

Did you— did he blink?
M3
M35:12

我们——

We—.
M2
M25:12

现在已经有几百家了,当然了,对任何资金管理人来说,去做这个都非常有诱惑力,因为如果你做得好,或者就算你做得没那么好,但市场表现很好,你也能赚很多钱。

There are now hundreds of them, and of course it's very enticing to any money manager to run because if you do well, or even if you don't do so well but the market does well, you can make a lot of money.

经营这种基金。

Running one.
M1
M15:26

经营这种基金。

Running one.
M2
M25:27

刚出来的这份报告,其实并没有对这种运作方式说什么特别严厉的话。

This report that just came out has really nothing particularly harsh to say about the operation.

所以我觉得你会看到成百上千的 hedge fund。

So I think you will see hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of hedge funds.

我想 Barron's 最新这一期,可能对一大批这类基金在第一季度的表现做了个汇总。

I think the current issue of Barron's may have a recap of how a large group did in the first quarter.

这些基金里面有很多钱,而且成立这种基金的激励非常大;如果你在管一个,那你出去吸引更多资金的激励也非常大。

And there's a lot of money in those funds, and there's a huge incentive to form them, and there's a huge incentive to go out and attract more money if you, if you run one.

而当华尔街出现这种局面的时候,你可以肯定,它们是不会自行消失的。

And when that condition exists in Wall Street, you can be sure that they won't wither away.

Charlie?

Charlie?
M3
M36:04

对,这件事有意思的地方就在于,那些人是多么有才华,可他们最后还是陷入了那么大的麻烦。

Yeah, what was interesting about that one is how talented the people were, and yet they got in so much trouble.

我觉得这也说明,实际上美国整个金融体系里涉及 derivatives 的那一套,是不负责任的。

I think it also demonstrates that actually the general system of finance in America involving derivatives is irresponsible.

全球到处流动的这些名义价值高达几万亿美元的东西,里面的风险实在太大了。

There's way too much risk in all these trillions of notional value sloshing around the world.

这里面没有像 commodities market 那样的清算系统,我也不认为这会是我们在 derivatives 这场游戏里看到的最后一次剧烈震荡。

There's no clearing system as there is in a commodities market, and I don't think it's the last convulsion we're going to see in the derivatives game.
M2
M26:47

这件事特别耐人寻味,因为站在那个机构最上面的,有十六个非常聪明——我是说,极其聪明的人。

It's fascinating in that you had 16 extremely bright— I mean, extremely bright people at the top of that.

他们前十六号人物的平均 IQ,很可能跟你能找到的任何一个组织相比,都一样高,甚至更高。

The average IQ would, would probably be as high or higher than any organization you could find among their top 16 people.

他们每个人都有几十年的经验,而合在一起,在操作这类证券——呃,也就是 LTCM 所投资的这类证券——方面,他们加起来有几百年的经验。

They individually had decades of experience and collectively had centuries of experience in operating in these sort of securities, uh, in which LTCM was invested.

而且他们自己也投了巨额资金进去,几乎在每一种情况下,他们投进去的都很可能占自己净资产里非常高的比例。

And they had a huge amount of money of their own up, and probably a very high percentage of their net worth in almost every case up.

所以你看到的是,一群超级聪明、经验极其丰富的人,用着自己的钱在操作,而实际上在那——对,没错。

So here you had super bright, extremely experienced people operating with their own money, and in effect on that— that's right.

到了九月份,他们破产了。

In September, they were broke.

这一点,对我来说,简直是非常耐人寻味。

And that, that to me, that is absolutely fascinating.

有一本书叫 You Only Have to Get Rich Once。

There was a book written, You Only Have to Get Rich Once.

这书名起得特别好。

It's a great title.

不过这本书本身并不算特别好。

It's not a very good book.

这是 Walter Gutman 写的,不过那已经是很多年前的书了。

Walter Gutman wrote it, but it— many years ago.

但这个书名是对的。

But the title is right.

你这辈子只需要发财一次就够了。

You only have to get rich once.

那为什么人们,尤其是那些非常聪明的人,会去冒着失去对他们来说特别重要的东西的风险,只为了得到一些根本没那么重要的东西呢?

And why do people, very bright people, risk losing something that's very important to them to gain something that's totally unimportant?

多赚的那点钱,实际上根本没有任何效用。

The added money has no utility whatsoever.

而失去的那些钱,本来却有巨大的效用,更别说名声还会受损之类的,所以从任何真正意义上讲,这种收益和损失的比例都荒唐得惊人。

And the money that was lost had enormous utility, and on top of that, reputation is tarnished and all of that sort of thing, so that the gain-loss ratio in any real sense is just incredible.

我的意思是,这就像在玩 Russian roulette。

I mean, it's like playing Russian roulette.

我的意思是,如果我递给你一把左轮手枪,里面有六个弹膛,一颗子弹,然后跟你说,扣一次扳机,给你一百万美元;你说不,然后我再问你,那你的价码是多少?

I mean, if you hand me a revolver with 6 bullets in it, or 6 chambers and 1 bullet, and you say, pull it once for $1 million, and I say no, and then you say, what is your price?

答案就是,没有任何价码。

The answer is there is no price.

当你已经很有钱的时候,就不该为了承担这种风险去标任何价格,尤其是在投资这类事情上。

And there shouldn't be any price on taking the risk when you're already rich, particularly of investment and all of that sort of thing.

但人们就是一再这么干,而且总这么干——只要一个很聪明、真的很聪明、而且本来很有钱的人破产了,原因基本都是 leverage。

But people repeatedly do it, and they do it— whenever a bright person, really bright person goes broke that has a lot of money, it's because of leverage.

简单说,没有借来的钱掺和在里面,你基本上,几乎不可能破产。

You simply, you basically can't— it'd be almost impossible to go broke without borrowed money being in the equation.

你们也知道,在 Berkshire,我们从来没有使用过任何真正意义上的大规模借款。

And as you know, at Berkshire, we've never used any real amount of borrowed money.

当然,如果我们多用一点,你知道,我们现在可能会特别特别有钱。

Now, if we'd used somewhat more, you know, we'd be really rich.

但如果我们多用很多,那我们有时候可能就会陷入麻烦。

But if we'd used a whole lot more, we might have gotten in trouble sometimes.

而且这里面根本没什么上行可言,你知道。

And there's no— there's just no upside to it, you know.

某一年多赚两个百分点,或者就那一年多赚一点点,却要去承担真正失败的风险,这有什么意义呢?

What's 2 percentage points more, you know, in a given year or that year, and run the risk of real failure?

但非常聪明的人就是会这么做,而且是一贯这么做,以后也还会继续这么做。

But very bright people do it, and they do it consistently, and they will continue to do it.

只要市场上还存在这种爆炸性的工具,他们就会被吸引过去;尤其是那些自己没什么可失去、却在拿别人的钱操作的人,更会被这种东西吸引。

And as long as explosive-type instruments are out there, they will gravitate toward them, and particularly people will gravitate toward them who have very little to lose but who are operating with other people's money.

比如说,在 LTCM 这个案例里,Charlie 也从 derivatives 的角度提到过,实际上,人们找到了办法绕开那些要求——而且显然这都是合法的——去绕开保证金要求。因为 risk arbitrage 这个业务,Charlie 和我以这样那样的形式做了四十年了。正常来说,这意味着你要拿出真金白银去买入多头那边的股票,然后再做空另一个标的来对冲,通常是因为你预期会发生并购之类的事情。

One of the things, for example, in the LTCM case, and Charlie mentioned it in terms of derivatives, in effect, there were ways found to get around the— and they were legal, obviously— to get around the margin requirements, because risk arbitrage is a business that Charlie and I have been in for 40 years in one form or another, and normally that means putting up the money to buy the stock on the long side and then shorting something against it that— where you expect a merger or something to happen.

但通过 derivatives,人们发现了办法,基本上可以不用投入什么钱,只要在多空两边各写一份 derivative contract 就行了。

But through derivatives, people have found out how to do that essentially putting up no money, just by writing a derivative contract on both sides.

而且你们也知道,Fed 发布的保证金要求——我相信现在应该还是这样——在股票买入上仍然要求百分之五十的 equity。

And there are margin requirements, as you know, that the Fed promulgates that I believe still call for 50%, uh, equity on, on, on, on stock purchases.

但如果你把交易安排成 derivative 的形式,这些要求就不适用了。这样一来,那些价值数十亿美元的股票头寸,实际上几乎都是由那些写出 derivative contracts 的人百分之百融资的。

But those requirements do not apply if you arrange the transaction in derivative form, so that these billions of dollars of positions in equities essentially were being financed 100% by the people who wrote the derivative contracts.

这就会惹出麻烦。

And that leads to trouble.

不是说它不行——你知道,百分之九十九的时候它都管用;但就像 Russian roulette 一样,六个弹膛里一颗子弹,去玩的话,百分之八十三又三分之一的时候也“管用”。

It doesn't— you know, 99% of the time it works, but, you know, 83 1/3% of the time it works to play Russian roulette with, with one bullet in there and 6 chambers.

但如果没有任何收益足以抵消亏损风险,那无论是百分之八十三又三分之一,还是百分之九十九,都远远不够好。

But neither 83 1/3% nor 99% is good enough when there is no gain to offset the risk of loss.
M3
M311:07

我想说,还有第二个因素会让这种局面变得危险,那就是,对于积极参与 derivatives、interest rate swaps 等交易的会计处理,其实是非常薄弱的。

I would argue that there is a second factor that makes the situation dangerous, and that is that the accounting for being actively engaged in derivatives, interest rate swaps, etc., is very weak.

我记得 Morgan Bank 是最后一个还在坚持的,后来他们最终也转向了一套比较宽松的会计标准,而这种标准正是那些从 derivatives 交易利润中分成的人所偏爱的;这也很自然,他们当然喜欢宽松的会计处理。

I think Morgan Bank was the last holdout, and they finally flipped to a lenient standard of accounting that's favored by people who are sharing in the profits from trading derivatives, and naturally they like liberal accounting.

所以你看到的是一个不负责任的清算系统,还有不负责任的会计处理。

So you've got an irresponsible clearing system, irresponsible accounting.

这可不是个好组合。

This is not a good combination.
M2
M211:53

JPMorgan 调整了他们的会计处理方式,我想——我也不太确定具体是什么时候,大概是一九九零年前后吧。不过 Charlie 和我,应该是在我们回到 Salomon 的时候,对这个变得更熟悉了。

JPMorgan shifted their accounting, I think—I'm not sure exactly when, around 1990, but Charlie and I, we probably became more familiar with that when we were back at Salomon.

而且这个完全是标准做法,你知道,就是 GAAP 会计。

And this is absolutely standard, you know, it's GAAP accounting.

但它会把利润前置确认。

But it front-ends profits.

如果你把利润前置确认,又按照利润的一定比例给人发钱,那有时候你就会看到一些非常有意思的结果。

And if you front-end profits and you pay people a percentage of the profits, you're going to get some very interesting results sometimes.

第四个问题。

Question 4.