2006年股东大会 · 企业的破产过程中，可能带来好的投资机会 — 文稿

M10:00

大家好，我叫 Barry Steinhardt，是来自纽约的股东。

Hello, my name is Barry Steinhardt, shareholder from New York.

我的问题跟 Chapter 11 破产重组程序有关。

My question relates to the Chapter 11 bankruptcy process.

我知道你们过去在 bankruptcy court 的一些事务里一直挺活跃的，所以我想问问，你们对这个领域有没有什么可能的改革想法？你们觉得有必要进行一些改革吗？

I know you have been active in the past in some activity in the bankruptcy court, and if you had thoughts on possible reforms in that area, if you believe that any reforms are necessary?

M20:28

嗯，这是个好问题。

Well, that's a good question.

Charlie 可能比我更有资格回答这个问题。

Charlie's probably better qualified to answer than I am.

我是说，我们曾经在破产程序中买下过 Fruit of the Loom，我们也参与过持有 junk bonds。

I mean, we have bought Fruit of the Loom out of bankruptcy, and we have had some involvement in owning junk bonds.

你知道，我们会关注破产程序这件事，不过要说到实际怎么去改进它，Charlie，你怎么看？

You know, we think about the bankruptcy process, but in terms of the practicalities of improving on it, what do you think, Charlie?

M30:53

嗯，我觉得这里面很多东西都相当糟糕。

Well, I think much of that is pretty horrible.

那里面存在一种竞争，连法院本身都在搞竞价，想把破产业务吸引过去。也就是说，有不同的法院都可以受理破产案件，而他们发现，如果自己形成一种文化，去特别离谱地给很多人付过高的费用，

You have a competition there where the courts themselves have gone into bidding contests to get bankruptcy business attracted, meaning that there are various courts that can handle bankruptcy cases, and they have found that if they develop a culture where they overpay a lot of people egregiously,

他们就能吸引来更多业务——律师、受托人、顾问，等等等等。

they can attract more business—lawyers, trustees, consultants, etc., etc.

我看这种事情看得很不舒服，所以我对破产的关注，可能没有我本来应该投入的那么多。

I find this so unpleasant to watch that I don't pay as much attention to bankruptcy as I probably should.

你知道，我年纪大了，我不喜欢把自己搞得胃里难受。

You know, I'm an old man and I don't like to have an upset stomach.

M21:49

嗯，我们会——我们会看——至少我会看，我不太确定 Charlie 会不会，不过——

Well, we will—we look at—at least I do, I'm not sure about Charlie, but—.

M31:53

对。

Yeah.

M21:55

你知道，未来二十年里，不管用什么方式，我们都会在不同程度上参与到一些破产案子里。

You know, bankruptcies will be something that we will, one way or another, over the next 20 years, have various ways of participating in.

我们买过——比如说，Enron 进入破产程序之后，我们买过它的一些债券。

We have bought—well, we bought certain of the bonds, for example, of Enron after they entered bankruptcy.

我们还买过一种叫 Osprey's 的东西。

We bought something called the Osprey's.

而复杂的破产案，是可能提供盈利机会的。

And a complicated bankruptcy can offer opportunities for profit.

不过现在，盯着破产案或者潜在破产案的人实在太多了。

Now, there's so many people looking at bankruptcies currently, or potential bankruptcies.

这个领域我会说，眼下并没有太多前景，但过去它是有前景的。

It's a field that I would say does not have a lot of promise right now, but it has had promise in the past.

实际上，在 Fruit of the Loom 那个案例里，我一开始只是买了一些 Fruit of the Loom 的债券，那时候我完全没想到我们居然有可能最后把整家公司拿下来。

We actually, in the Fruit of the Loom situation, I first went into that just by buying some Fruit of the Loom bonds when I had no notion that we might conceivably end up with the company.

但是，你知道，我对它的了解已经足够让我去买那些债券了。

But, you know, I knew enough about it to buy the bonds.

后来 Enron 出现了，那就是一团大乱。

And Enron comes along and it's a big mess.

再往前二十多年前，Penn Central 也出现过，那也是一团大乱。

Then Penn Central came along 20-odd years ago and it was a big mess.

而在 Penn Central 那个案子里，很多钱就是这么赚到的，原因仅仅是它乱得太复杂了。

And there was a lot of money made in the Penn Central simply because it was such a complicated mess.

所以，只要碰到那种规模大、情况复杂的事情，就很有可能出现定价错误。

So anytime there's something big, complicated, there's certainly a good chance of mispricing.

当然，最近这种定价错误，可能更多是偏高而不是偏低；但从长期来看，你总会发现一些机会——在破产情形里，总会有一些值得做、很有吸引力的事情。

Now, lately the mispricing may be more on the high side than on the low side, but over time you're going to find some—there will be some attractive things to do in bankruptcy situations.

我们也遇到过别的破产案子，我们参与进去了，结果后来别人出的价比我们高。

We've had other bankruptcy situations where we've gotten involved in the process and then been outbid.

这种事在 Burlington 发生过，在 Citadel 也发生过。

It happened at Burlington and happened at Citadel.

不过我们当时持有 Citadel 的全部债券，所以最后结果还是不错的。

And but we owned all the bonds at Citadel, so we came out fine.

如果你是做买投资或者买企业这个行当的，这个东西是值得了解的。

It's something to understand if you're in the business of buying investments or, or businesses.

我会说啊，你知道，如果我们接下来还能再干个十年或者十五年，那我们总会做点什么。

And I would say that, you know, if we're around for another 10 or 15 years, that we'll do something or other.

也许，也许会在 bankruptcy 这个领域里做一笔比较大的。

Maybe, maybe substantial in the bankruptcy field.

像 Enron，嗯，各种款项还在以不同方式继续支付，不过，呃，Osprey 那个案子情况就比较复杂，呃，整件事都很复杂，不过你知道，我们也不是在最低点买进去的之类，但你知道，我们在那里赚到的钱远远超过三倍，而且那种机会你其实是可以投进去相当一大笔钱的。

The Enrons, um, the payments still being made in various ways, but, but, uh, the Osprey, which was kind of a complicated situation, uh, the whole thing was complicated, but, you know, we didn't buy at the bottom or anything like that, but, you know, we considerably more than tripled our money in something that you could have put a fair amount of money in.

所以这类东西可能很有意思。

So they can be interesting.

Charlie，你要不要——

Charlie, do you want to—

M34:33

嗯，我记得 Eastern Airlines 那次 bankruptcy，当时有很多员工——还有很多社区——本来都会受到影响。

Well, I remember the Eastern Airlines bankruptcy where there were a lot of employees that would have— and communities that would have been affected.

而那个案子里，我会说，法院对 senior creditors 的伤害简直非常严重。

And the courts in that case, I would say, abused the senior creditors horribly.

所以这是个很有意思的领域。

And so it's a very interesting field.

M24:51

对，没错——而且它可能非常难以预测。

Yeah, it— and it can be very unpredictable.

在 Penn Central 那个案子里，你会看到多得惊人的各种 claim。

In the Penn Central case, you had an incredible variety of claims.

我的意思是，有 leased lines，还有各种各样的 first lien、second lien，什么都有。

I mean, you had leased lines and you had all kinds of first and second liens and everything.

据我记得——细节上我可能记得不完全对——但据我记得，那个法官看着这一大堆复杂得不得了的东西，可能是到当时为止 bankruptcy 历史上出现过的最复杂的一次，然后他说，这玩意儿实在是太复杂了。

And the judge, as I remember— I may be wrong a little bit on this, on the details— but as I remember, the judge just looked at this incredible, probably the most complicated bankruptcy that had come down the pike in the history of bankruptcy to that point, and he just said, this is just too damn complicated.

我干脆就有点不去管这里面各种优先顺序之类的问题了。

I'm just sort of gonna ignore the various priorities and all this.

我就——也许他们会把这叫做 substantive consolidation 之类的。

I'm just gonna— perhaps they might call it substantive consolidation or something.

我就是把这些全都放到一起，然后我给你们一个又快又直接的解决方案。

I'm just gonna put this all together, and I'm gonna give you a quick, fast solution.

我觉得那是处理事情一个非常聪明的办法，因为不然的话，我觉得 Penn Central 可能到现在都还没完。

And I think it was a very smart way to handle things, 'cause otherwise I think Penn Central might still be going.

但那并不是书本上说应该怎么做的那种做法。

But it wasn't what the book said would be done.

法官在这种事情上能起到非常大的决定作用。

Judges can determine things in a very big way.

我记得我们当时在 Cincinnati，处理我之前提到的那个报纸案子，我跟 Charlie 说，有个法官把一项命令暂缓执行了，我记得大概是一周之类的。

I remember when we were in Cincinnati on that newspaper case I mentioned earlier, I said, Charlie, a judge had stayed an order, I think, for a week or something like that.

我就对 Charlie 说，我说，一个 federal judge 的权力到底有多大？

And I said to Charlie, I said, how much power does a federal judge have?

Charlie 说，嗯，在一段时间里，他觉得自己有多大权力，就有多大权力。

And Charlie says, well, for a while, as much as he thinks he has.

我从这句话里学到了很多。

I learned a lot out of that.

第三题。

Number 3.