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2004年股东大会 · 公司该如何处理多余现金?巴菲特谈股份回购与分红的艺术

45 段 · 2 位说话人 · 原片 6:03
M1
M10:00

嗨,我叫 Charlie Rice,我是来自 Missouri 州 St. Louis 的股东。

Hi, my name's Charlie Rice, and I'm a stockholder from St. Louis, Missouri.

我很想听听你们对上市公司该把现金用来发股息,还是用来回购股票的看法。

I appreciate hearing your comments on publicly held companies using their cash for dividends versus stock buybacks.

嗯,我们——这个道理其实很简单,不过实际操作未必会按逻辑来。

Well, we—the equation is pretty simple, but the practice doesn't necessarily follow logic.
M2
M20:22

这个——。

The—.
M1
M10:25

很显然,只要你对股东如实说明公司到底在发生什么,没有为了压低股价之类去操纵市场,那么当一只股票能以远低于它企业价值的价格买回来时,呃,那大概就是现金最好的用途。

It's obviously, as long as you're telling the truth to your shareholders about what's going on so that you aren't manipulating the stock downward or something, when a stock can be bought well below its business value, uh, that probably is the best use of cash.

Washington Post 在一九七零年代就大规模这么做过。

It's something the Washington Post did on a huge scale back in the 1970s.

Teledyne 可能回购了自家百分之九十左右的股票,或者差不多接近这个数。

Teledyne may have bought 90% or something, or close to it, of their stock back.

这也是过去有相当高比例的公司回购股票的原因,因为他们确实认为自家股票的成交价格低于它本身的价值。

And that was the reason a very significant percentage of companies bought stock back in the past, because they actually thought it was selling for less than it was worth.

就像我说的,这个做法也可能被滥用,如果你用各种办法在某种程度上把自家股价压下去的话;不过,不过那不是通常的情况。

Like I say, that, that can be abused if you do various things to bury your stock in one way or another, but, but that wasn't the usual case.
M2
M21:07

它——。

It—.
M1
M11:08

在那个年代,股票回购相对并不受欢迎。

Stock repurchases were relatively unpopular in those days.

现在它已经变得相当流行了,而且,而且,而且我也接触过不少这类操作,也能多少看出我认为背后的真实动机——哪怕不是他们嘴上说的动机。

They've become quite popular now, and, and, and to the extent that I've been around a good number of them and, and been able to pick up on what I thought was the underlying rationale, if not the professed rationale.

你知道,我觉得很多时候这么做,是因为有些人希望这样能让他们的股价别跌下去。

You know, I think it's often done for people that, that are hoping that it causes their, their stock price not to go down.

而且,呃,而且他们——而且很多时候,回购发生的价格,对持续持有的股东来说,其实并不是特别合理。

And, uh, and they're—and, and often done at prices that don't really make a lot of sense for continuing shareholders.

嗯,如果我们想把一大笔现金返还给股东,那我们会——如果我们的股票被低估了,我们会,我们会,呃,去告诉股东:我们觉得这股票很便宜,我们也觉得这笔现金放在你们手里会比放在我们手里用得更好,所以我们会按我们认为相对于 intrinsic value 有折价的价格来回购。

Um, if we wanted to return a bunch of cash to shareholders, we would—if our stock was undervalued, we would, we would, uh, we would go to the shareholders and say, we think it's cheap, and we think that this cash can be better used by you than by us, and we will therefore be repurchasing at what we think is a discount to intrinsic value.

这样,留下来的股东会过得更好,而退出的人卖出的价格,也会比原本可能拿到的稍微好一点。

And the people that remain will be better off, and the people that get out will get out at a little bit better price than they would otherwise.

说到股息,你就会进入一个预期管理的问题。

In terms of dividends, you get into an expectational situation.

对大多数实行——发放现金股息的公司来说,让股息每年上上下下地波动,并不合理,虽然私营公司倒是经常这么做。

And for most companies that follow a—that pay a cash dividend, it doesn't make sense to be—to bounce around the dividend from year to year, although private companies frequently do that.

我们自己对旗下子公司也是这么做的。

And we do it ourselves with our subsidiaries.

它们——某家子公司可能今年给我们很多钱,明年就没那么多。

They—some subsidiary can pay us a lot of money one year and not so much money the next year.

呃,但对上市公司来说,确实——很多人买股票就是为了拿股息,他们也希望股息有规律、稳定,而且这里面还有一种信号作用,等等这些因素。

Uh, but with public companies, people do—a lot of people do buy stocks to obtain dividends, and they hope for regularity, and there's a signaling aspect to it and everything.

所以,我会说,一旦一家上市公司确定了股息政策,在你要实质性改变这个政策之前,你应该认真想很久。

So, I would, I would say that once you establish a dividend policy with a public company, you should think a long time before you change that policy in a material way.

不过我认为,如果企业内部没有好的资金用途,而股票又被低估了,那现金最好的用途就是回购股票。

But I think the best use of cash, if you don't have a good use for it in the business, if the stock is underpriced, is to repurchase it.

如果它被高估了,那你就根本不该回购哪怕一股。

And if it's overpriced, you got no business buying in a single share.

很多公司却就是这么干。

A lot of companies do it.
M2
M23:12

Charlie?

Charlie?

对,股息是个非常有意思的话题。

Yeah, dividends are a very interesting subject.

如果你把那些没必要的股票交易、投资建议的成本、大量犯错的代价,还有买进卖出的交易成本都算进去,我觉得现在说一句并不算太夸张的话:公司支付出去的股息总额,大致上跟这些交易和投资建议里被浪费掉的钱差不多一样多,所以股东最终真正拿到手的净股息,差不多等于零。

If you count the unnecessary stock trading and the cost of investment advice and the cost of making a lot of errors and the trading costs in and out, I don't think it would be too extreme to say that now the total amount that's paid out in dividends is roughly equal to the amount that is wasted in all this trading and investment advice, so that the net dividends that come to the shareholders are approximately zero.

这种运转一个共和国的方式非常奇怪,但很少有人会去评论这件事。

This is a very peculiar way to run a republic, and very few people comment about it.
M1
M13:57

对,其实我前些时候就在 Fortune 的一篇文章里写过这个。

Yeah, actually, I did in an article some time ago in Fortune.

我算过一种摩擦成本,就是 American shareholders 在某种意义上换椅子、换位置时产生的成本。就整个 American business 来说,这些摩擦成本很可能跟 American corporations 支付出去的总额差不了太多。

I did the frictional cost to American shareholders in sort of changing chairs. For all American business as a whole, those frictional costs are probably not much different than the entire amount paid out by American corporations.

所以——不过说到单个公司的层面,一家公司如果预期自己会持续赚到比它在业务里能够高效利用的更多的钱,那它就应该发 dividends。

So— but getting to the individual corporation level, a company that expects to regularly earn more than it can profitably employ in its business should should be paying out dividends.

拿我们旗下的一家公司来说,比如 See's Candies。

Take a subsidiary of ours like See's Candies.

我们很希望把 See's Candies 扩张到现在规模的两倍、三倍,但这行不通。

We would love to expand See's Candies to double or triple its present size, but it doesn't work.

我们已经用很多不同的办法试过了。

We've tried it a lot of different ways.

所以它就应该把赚到的钱分出去。

So it should be paying out its earnings.

如果它是一家 public company——它以前确实是——你可以说,接近百分之百的 payout ratio 在那里是说得通的。

If it was a public company, and it was at one time, you know, you could argue that something approaching a 100% payout would, would make sense there.

但大多数 managements 会担心,将来某个时候 earnings 下滑,所以他们宁愿先定一个比较低的水平,这样用一个保守的水平来做,就能确保 dividends 的规律性。

But most managements, worrying about earnings falling off at some time in the future, would rather establish a lower level and, and, and, and, and therefore ensure regularity of dividends, uh, by, by going with, with a conservative level.

这个事我们在 Berkshire 当然也会考虑,尤其是当我们手上放着三百多亿美元的时候。

Uh, I, uh, you know, we— it's obviously something we think about at Berkshire when we have $30-odd billion around.

如果随着时间推移,我们想不出办法把这些钱用出去,那继续把它留在 corporate form 里就是个错误。

If we can't figure out a way to employ that over time, you know, it's, it's a mistake to keep it in corporate form.

但我们有这样的预期,而且我觉得这是个合理的预期,就是我们能把这笔钱投入使用。

But we have this expectation, and I think it's a reasonable expectation, that we get to put it to work.

如果我们哪天得出了不同的结论,假如我们认为自己的 stock 明显被低估了,那我们大概会考虑通过 repurchases 把钱分散出去,尤其是在现在对个人来说 dividends 和 capital gains 税负差不多中性的情况下。

If we ever came to a different conclusion, if our stock— we thought our stock was significantly undervalued, we'd probably figure in terms of dispersing it through repurchases, particularly where now dividends and capital gains are neutral for individuals.

如果我们的 stock 没有被低估,而我们又觉得需要做点什么,那我们大概就会通过 dividend 来处理。

And if our stock was not underpriced and we felt we would, we would probably do something by a dividend.

不过,这事短期内不会发生。

It's not going to happen soon, however.

第二点。

Number 2.