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1997年股东大会 · 巴芒谈投资的本质,如何评估企业的内在价值

105 段 · 3 位说话人 · 原片 13:00
M1
M10:00

对。

Yes.
M2
M20:00

我是来自 Colorado 州 Boulder 的 Fred Kouger,我想问一个关于内在价值的问题。这个问题想请你们两位都回答,因为你们写过,也提到过,也许你们会得出不同的答案。

I'm Fred Kouger from Boulder, Colorado, and this is a question about intrinsic value, and it's a question for both of you because you have written that perhaps you would come up with different answers.

你们经常写、也经常讲内在价值,而且你们表示,你们会尽量在年报里给股东提供一些工具,让他们能够自己做出判断。

You write and speak a great deal about intrinsic value, and you indicate that you try to give shareholders the tools in the annual report so they can come to their own determination.

我想请你们把这一点再展开讲一讲。

What I'd like you to do is expand upon that a little bit.
M1
M10:34

当然。

Sure.
M2
M20:36

首先,你认为在判断内在价值的时候,不管是在 Berkshire 的年报里,还是在你们会去看的其他公司年报里,哪些工具是最重要的?

First of all, what do you believe to be the important tools either in the Berkshire annual report or other annual reports that you review in determining intrinsic value?

第二,你在使用这些工具的时候,会依据哪些规则、原则或者标准?

Secondly, what rules or principles or standards do you use in applying those tools?

最后,这个过程——也就是使用这些工具、应用这些标准——和你们之前说过的、用来评估一家公司的那些过滤条件之间,是什么关系?

And lastly, how does that process, that is the use of the tools, the application of the standards, relate to what you have previously described as the filters you use in determining your evaluation of a company?
M1
M11:22

如果我们在看任何一家企业的时候,能够看清它未来——就说未来一百年吧,或者直到这家公司消亡为止——这门生意会给所有者带来多少现金流入,或者需要所有者投入多少现金流出。

If we could see, in looking at any business, what its future cash inflows or outflows from the business to the owners, or from the owners, would be over the next—we'll call it 100 years, or until the business is extinct.

然后再用合适的利率把这些现金折现回来,这个利率我等一下会讲——那么我们就能得到一个内在价值的数字。

And then could discount that back at the appropriate interest rate, which I'll get to in a second, uh, that would give us a number for intrinsic value.

换句话说,这有点像你在看一只债券,这只债券上有一大堆票息,一直到一百年后才到期。如果你能看清这些票息是多少,那你就可以算出这只债券相对于政府债券的价值;如果你愿意,还可以加上一个合适的风险等级。或者你也可以拿一只票息百分之五的政府债券,和另一只票息百分之七的政府债券来比较。

In other words, it would be like looking at a bond that had a whole bunch of coupons on it that was due in 100 years, and if you could see what those coupons are, you can figure the value of that bond compared to government bonds, if you want to stick an appropriate risk grade in, uh, or you can compare one government bond with 5% coupons to another government bond with 7% coupons.

这两只债券的价值都不一样,因为它们上面印着的票息不同。

Each one of those bonds has a different value because they have different coupons printed on them.

企业在未来也会逐步产生类似的票息。

Businesses have coupons that are going to develop in the future too.

唯一的问题是,这些票息不会直接印在那张凭证上,投资人得自己去估计,随着时间推移,这些票息大概会是什么样。

The only problem is they aren't printed on the instrument, and it's up to the investor to try to estimate what those coupons are going to be over time.

就像我们说过的,在 high-tech 企业或者类似那种生意里,我们根本不知道那些票息会是什么。

As we have said, in high-tech businesses or something like that, we don't have the faintest idea what the coupons are going to be.

当我们进入那些我们觉得自己能比较合理地理解的生意时,我们其实就是在努力把那些票息“印出来”。

When we get into businesses where we think we can understand them reasonably well, we are trying to print the coupons out.

我们是在努力判断,这些企业在十年后或者二十年后会值多少钱。

We are trying to figure out what businesses are going to be worth in 10 or 20 years.

我们在一九七二年买下 See's Candies 的时候,就必须做出判断:我们能不能看清将会起作用的竞争力量,能不能看清这家公司的强项和弱项,以及在十年、二十年、三十年的时间里,这一切会呈现出什么样子。

When we bought See's Candies in 1972, we had to come to the judgment as to whether we could figure out the competitive forces that would operate, the strengths and weaknesses of the company, and, and how that would look over a 10 or 20 or 30-year period.

如果你想评估内在价值,归根结底,一切都和现金流有关。

And if you attempt to assess intrinsic value, it all relates to cash flows.

你现在之所以把现金投进任何一种投资里,唯一的原因,就是你期待以后能把现金拿出来。不是靠把它卖给别人——那不过是谁赢谁的游戏——而是从某种意义上说,靠这个资产本身能够产出什么。

The only reason for putting cash into any kind of an investment now is because you expect to take cash out, not by selling it to somebody else, because that's just a game of who beats who, but by, in a sense, by what the asset itself produces.

买农场是这样,买公寓楼是这样,买企业也是这样。

That's true if you're buying a farm, it's true if you're buying an apartment house, it's true if you're buying a business.

你提到的那些过滤条件——我们有很多过滤条件——其实是在告诉我们:有些企业,我们根本不知道它在十年或二十年后会值多少钱,我们甚至连一个有根据的猜测都做不出来。

And the filters you described—there are a number of filters which say to us, we don't know what that business is going to be worth in, in 10 or 20 years, and we can't even make an educated guess.

显然,我们并不认为自己能精确到小数点后三位、两位,或者类似那样,知道它到底会产出多少;但对于某些类型的企业,我们相当有把握,知道自己的判断大体上是靠谱的。

Obviously, we don't think we know to 3 decimal places or 2 decimal places or anything like that what precisely what's going to be produced, but we have a high degree of confidence that we're in the ballpark with certain kinds of businesses.

这些过滤条件,就是为了确保我们待在那类企业里。

The filters are designed to make sure we're in those kinds of businesses.

基本上,我们会用长期、无风险——也就是说类似政府债券那样的利率——来思考我们应该用什么折现率。

We basically use long-term, risk-free—let's say government bond-type interest rates to think back in terms of what we should discount at.

你知道,投资这场游戏,核心就是这个。

And, you know, that's, that's what the game of investment is all about.

投资,就是现在把钱投出去,之后从这个资产身上拿回更多的钱,而且不是靠把它卖给别人,而是靠这个资产本身会产出什么。

Investment is putting out money to get more money back later, later on from the asset, and, and not by selling it to somebody else, but by what the asset itself will produce.

如果你是投资者,你看的就是这个资产会做什么——在我们的情况里,就是这些企业会做什么。

If you're an investor, you're looking at what the asset—you're looking at what the asset is going to do, in our case, businesses.

如果你是投机者,你主要盯着的是这个东西的价格会怎么变,而不管企业本身怎么样;那不是我们玩的游戏。

If you're a speculator, you're primarily focusing on what the price of the object is going to do independent of the business, and that's not our game.

所以我们认为,只要我们对企业的判断是对的,我们就会赚很多钱。

So we figure if we're right about the business, we're going to make—we're going to make a lot of money.

如果我们对这个生意看错了,那我们就一点指望都没有了。

And if we're wrong about the business, we don't have any hopes.

我们也不指望能赚钱。

We don't expect to make money.

在看 Berkshire 的时候,我们会尽可能把我们业务里的关键信息告诉你们。

And in looking at Berkshire, we try to tell you as much as possible as we can about our business, of the key factors.

这些东西,Charlie 和我——嗯,我们在年报里写到那些业务的内容,就是我们自己会看的那些东西。

Those are the things that Charlie and I—well, the things we put in our report about those businesses are the things that we look at ourselves.

所以就算 Charlie 跟 Berkshire 毫无关系,只是去看我们的报告,我觉得,他大概也会得出一个和他这么多年一直待在这里所形成的判断差不多的内在价值结论。

So if Charlie had nothing to do with Berkshire but he looked at our report, he would probably, in my view, he would come to pretty much the same idea of intrinsic value that he would come to from being around it, you know, for X number of years.

这些信息本来就应该在那里。

The information should be there.

我们给你们的信息,就是如果双方位置对调,我们会希望从你们那里得到的信息。

We give you the information that if the positions were reversed, we would want to get from you.

像 Coca-Cola、Gillette、Disney 这种公司,你会在它们的报告里看到这些信息。

And in companies like Coca-Cola or Gillette or Disney or those kind of businesses, you will see the information in the reports.

你得对它们在做什么有一些理解,不过这些理解其实也存在于你的日常生活里。

You have to have some understanding of what they're doing, but you have that in your everyday activities.

你会获得这种知识的——你会获得这种了解。

You'll get that—you'll get that kind of knowledge.

对,像某些 high-tech 公司,你未必能获得这种了解,但像这类公司你是可以的。

Yeah, you won't get it, you know, in terms of some high-tech company, but you'll get it with those kind of companies.

然后你就坐下来,试着去预测未来。

And then you sit down and you, you try to predict out the future.
M3
M35:52

Charlie?

Charlie?

我想说,在投资里有一个很有用的筛选标准,就是机会成本这个简单概念。

I would argue that one filter that's useful in investing is the simple idea of opportunity cost.

如果你已经有一个可以大量买入的机会,而且你觉得它比你看到的另外百分之九十八的东西都更好,那你完全可以把另外那百分之九十八都筛掉,因为你已经知道有个更好的了。

If you have one opportunity that you already have available in large quantity, and you like it better than 98% of the other things you see, well, you can just screen out the other 98% because you already know something better.

所以,机会多的人,往往会比机会少的人做出更好的投资。

So that people who have a lot of opportunities tend to make better investments than people that don't have a lot of opportunities.

而且,手里有非常好的机会、又会运用机会成本这个概念的人,在决定买什么的时候,就能做出更好的判断。

And, and people who have very good opportunities, and using a concept of opportunity cost, they can make better decisions about what to buy.

用这种思路,你最后会得到一个集中持仓的投资组合,而我们并不介意这样。

With this attitude, you get a concentrated portfolio, which we don't mind.

我们这种做法其实非常简单,但并没有被广泛效仿。

That practice of ours, which is so simple, is not widely copied.

我也不知道为什么。

I do not know why.

当然,现在 Berkshire 的股东里是有人这么做的。

Now, it's copied among the Berkshire shareholders.

我的意思是,你们大家都已经学会这一套了,但它并不是投资管理行业里的标准做法。

I mean, all you people have learned it, but it's not the standard in investment management.

即使是在那些顶尖大学和其他知识机构里也不是。

Even at great universities and other intellectual institutions.

这是个很有意思的问题。

Very interesting question.

如果我们是对的,为什么那么多声名显赫的地方却错得这么离谱?

If we're right, why are so many eminent places so wrong?
M1
M17:18

这个问题可能有好几种答案。

There are several possible answers to that question.

对,对。

Yes, yes.

不过我们的思路是——我是说,如果有人拿一个生意给我们看,我们脑子里冒出来的第一个念头就是,我们是不是宁可多拥有一点 Coca-Cola,也不愿意要这个生意?

The attitude, though—I mean, if somebody shows us a business, you know, the first thing that goes through our head is, would we rather own this business than more Coca-Cola?

我们是不是宁可多拥有一点 Gillette?

Would we rather own it than more Gillette?

你知道,我们——不拿它去和那些你非常有把握的东西做比较,才真是荒唐。

You know, we—it's crazy not to compare it to things that you're very certain of.

像那样的公司,我们能找到并且对它们未来很有把握的企业,其实非常少。

There's very few businesses that we'll find that we're certain of the future about as companies such as that.

所以,我们会想找那种确定性能尽量接近那种程度的公司。

And therefore, we will want companies where the certainty gets close to that.

然后我们还得判断一下,跟直接多买一点那类公司相比,这样做是不是更划算。

And then we'll want to figure that we're better off than just buying more of those.

如果每一个管理层,在去买一家跟自己主业毫不相关的企业之前——甚至那家公司可能在别人拿来推销给他们之前不久,他们都还没听说过——如果他们先问一句,这比回购我们自己的股票更好吗?

If every management, before they bought a business in some unrelated field that they might not have even heard of, you know, more than a short time before that's being promoted to them, if they said, is this better than buying in our own stock?

你知道,这甚至比去买 Coca-Cola 的股票之类的还好吗?

You know, is this better than even buying, you know, buying Coca-Cola stock or something?

那成交的案子就会少很多。

There'd be a lot fewer deals done.

但是,他们没有——他们往往不会去这样衡量。

But, but they don't— they tend not to measure.

呃,我们会努力拿我们认为尽可能接近完美的标准来做比较。

Uh, we try to measure against what we regard as, as close to perfection as we can get.
M3
M38:36

Charlie,你有什么要说的吗?

Charlie, anyone?

嗯,我想这么说,intrinsic value 这个概念以前其实要容易理解得多,因为以前有很多股票的交易价格,只有你如果拥有整家公司、很容易把它整体变现时那个价值的百分之五十,甚至更低。

Well, I will say this, that the concept of intrinsic value used to be a lot easier because there were all kinds of stocks that were selling for 50% or less of the amount at which you could have easily liquidated the whole corporation if you owned the whole corporation.

事实上,在 Berkshire Hathaway 的历史上,我们买过一些东西,当时的价格只有其清算价值的百分之二十。

Indeed, in the history of Berkshire Hathaway, we've bought things at 20% of then liquidating value.

而在过去,Ben Graham 的追随者可以拿着他们的 Geiger counters 在整个 corporate America 上扫来扫去,就能找出一些目标;只要你对整家公司的市场价格稍微熟悉一点,你就很容易看出来,你买到的是一个巨大的折价。

And in the old days, the Ben Graham followers could run their Geiger counters over corporate America, and they could spot out a few things, and you could easily— you could see, if you were at all familiar with the market prices of whole corporations, that you were buying at a huge discount.

那不管管理层有多差,如果你买入的价格只有资产价值的百分之五十,或者百分之三十,甚至更低,那你手里就已经占了很大便宜。

Well, no matter how bad the management, if you're buying at 50% of asset value or 30% or so on down, you have a lot going for you.

然后,呃,随着这个世界变得更精明了,再加上股票一直给人们带来很不错的表现,股票整体的价格也就越来越高。

And, uh, and as the world has wised up and as stocks have behaved so well for people, but stocks generally have gone to higher and higher prices.

那种靠低于 intrinsic value 打折买入的游戏,现在就难做多了。

That game gets much harder now to find something at a discount from intrinsic value.

那些简单的系统,通常已经不管用了。

Those simple systems ordinarily don't work.

你得进入 Warren 那种思考方式,而那就难多了。

You've got to get into Warren's kind of thinking, and that is a lot harder.

我觉得,在少数一些领域里,你是可以预测未来的。

I think you can predict the future in a few places.

最好是你真正理解几个来自良好通识教育的基本观念。

Best if you understand a few basic ideas that come from a good general education.

呃,这也就是我之前在 USC Business School 那场演讲里讲的东西。

And, uh, and that's what I was talking about in that talk I gave at the USC Business School.

换句话说,Coca-Cola 其实是一家很简单的公司,只要你把它拆开来,用一些最基本的力量去分析。

In other words, Coca-Cola is a simple company if it's stripped down and analyzed in terms of some elemental forces.
M1
M110:34

大多数——

Majority—.
M3
M310:35

Costco 其实也不难理解。

It's hard to understand Costco either.

你知道,我的意思是,世界上有一些基本模型,并不需要——并不需要你具备像 quantum mechanics 那样的能力。

You know, I mean, there are certain fundamental models out there that do not take— you don't have the kind of ability that quantum mechanics requires.

你只需要知道几个简单的东西,而且是真正把它们搞懂。

You just have to know a few simple things and really know them.
M1
M110:50

Charlie 说清算的时候,他不是说把这个企业关掉,而是说,光是这股现金流,对别人来说也值多少钱。

When Charlie talks about liquidating, he's not talking about closing up the enterprise, but he's talking about what somebody else would pay for that stream of cash too.

我是说,对,打个比方,如果你在早些年——比如一九七四年——去看 Cap Cities 旗下那一组电视台,它们的价值,假设说,会是公司当时股价对应市值的四倍。

I mean, yeah, I mean, if you could have looked at a collection of television stations, uh, owned by Cap Cities, for example, in the early— well, 1974, and it would have been worth, we'll say, 4 times what the company was selling for.

不是因为你会把这些电视台关掉,而只是因为它们的收入现金流,对别人来说就值那么多。

Not because you'd close the stations, but just their stream of income was worth that to somebody else.

只不过当时市场情绪非常低迷,不过就像我说的,如果按协商交易的方式,你完全可以把这些资产卖到公司当时市值的四倍,而且你还拥有非常出色的管理层——我的意思是,这种事在市场里就是会发生。

It's just that the marketplace was very depressed, although, like I say, on a negotiated basis, you could have gone and sold the properties for 4 times what the company was selling for, and you got wonderful management and— I mean, those things happen in markets.

以后还会再发生的。

They will happen again.

不过,投资和计算 intrinsic value 的一部分就在于,当你最后算出来的答案不对劲的时候——也就是说,如果结果告诉你不要买,那你就不能因为别人觉得它会涨,或者因为你朋友最近轻轻松松赚了很多钱,或者类似这种原因,就硬去买。

But part of investing and calculating intrinsic value is if you get the wrong answer when you get through— in other words, if it says don't buy, you can't buy just because somebody else thinks it's going to go up or because your friends have made a lot of easy money lately or anything of the sort.

你就是得有能力转身走开,凡是不合适的都别碰,而现在这年头,真正合适的东西非常少。

You just have to be able to walk away from anything that doesn't work, and very few things work these days.

你还得避开任何你看不懂的东西,就我来说,这可是个很大的限制。

You also have to walk away from anything you don't understand, which in my case is a big handicap.
M3
M312:00

不过,Warren,你也会同意吧,现在确实难多了,对吧?

But you would agree, wouldn't you, Warren, that it's much harder now?
M1
M112:03

对,不过我也同意,几乎在过去这四十年里,我们每一次站在台上,可能都会说,以前也同样难得多。

Yeah, but I would also agree that almost at any time over the last 40 years that we've been up on a podium, we would have said it was much harder in the past, too.

但现在确实更难了。

But it is harder now.

难太多了。

It's way harder.

现在更难,还有一部分原因是我们管理的资本规模太大了。

Part of it being harder now, too, is the amount of capital we run.

我是说,如果我们管理的是十万美元,那我们的回报前景会——而且,而且我们还真的很需要这笔钱——我们的回报前景,会比现在管理 Berkshire 时好得多。

I mean, if we were running $100,000, our prospects for returns would be— and, and we really needed the money— our prospects for return would be considerably better than they are running Berkshire.

这其实非常简单。

It's just, it's very simple.

我们可选择的投资想法范围,会一下子扩大非常多倍。

Our universe of possible ideas would expand by a huge factor.

我们今天看的这些东西,从它们的性质来说,很多人都不得不——都会去看。

We are looking at things today that by their nature a lot of people have to— are looking at.

而以前有些时候,我们在看的东西,是非常少人会去看的。

And, and there were times in the past when we were looking at things that very few people were looking at.

不过,过去也有另外一些时候,我们在看的那些东西,全世界都在用一种近乎疯狂的眼光看它们,而那——那显然是很有帮助的。

But there were other times in the past when we were looking at things where the whole world was just looking at them kind of crazy, and, and that, that's a decided help.

Zone 3。

Zone 3.