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“华尔街之狼”会有一天接管伯克希尔吗?

60 段 · 3 位说话人 · 原片 6:07
M1
M10:00

Charlie,问一个关于 activism 的问题。

Charlie, a question about activism.

Activism 还在持续升温,而且就像 Charlie 在二零一四年年度股东大会上说的那样,他觉得这件事不是在变好,而是在变得更糟。

Activism continues to grow, and as Charlie stated at the 2014 annual meeting, he sees it getting worse instead of getting better.

所以问题是,我们当然希望 Charlie 和 Warren 都能一直在,但很遗憾,总会有一天他们不在这儿,没法继续管这个摊子了。

So the question is, we hope that Charlie and Warren will both be around forever, but unfortunately there will be a time when they're no longer here to manage the store.
M2
M20:18

我不接受这种失败主义。

I reject such defeatism.
M1
M10:22

如果 Warren 按照他的遗产安排,在十年时间里把自己的股份陆续捐给慈善机构,而 activist 的力量又越来越强,那 Berkshire 在不久的将来和更长远的未来,要怎么保护自己不受 activist 的影响?

If Warren is giving away his shares to charity over a 10-year period through his estate plan, and activists become increasingly more powerful, how will Berkshire defend itself from activists in the near and far future?

还有,如果将来 Berkshire 被拆分了,而股东因此拿到了相当可观的溢价,你会把这看成一种失败吗?

And would you consider it a failure if Berkshire were broken up in the future and shareholders received a significant premium?

那反过来说,要让你觉得这是成功,溢价得高到什么程度?

And for you to consider it a success, what would the premium need to be?
M2
M20:45

对,不过如果经营得当,把它拆开并不会产生什么溢价。

Yeah, well, if it's run right, there won't be a premium in breaking it up.

表面上看起来也许会像是有。

It may look like it.

我的意思是,人们会说,那个子公司 A 单独拿出去能卖到二十倍 earnings,而整个公司现在只卖十五倍。

I mean, people will say there's subsidiary A that would sell at 20 times earnings and the whole place is selling at 15.

但如果你把那个二十倍的业务 spin off 出去,整个公司可就不会还按十五倍来卖了。

But the whole place won't sell at 15 if you spin off the one at 20.

我是说,我在 annual report 里已经讲过了,把这些公司放在同一份 corporate tax return 下面,对 Berkshire 有很多好处。

I mean, I laid out in the annual report, there are a lot of benefits to Berkshire in terms of having the companies in the same corporate tax return.

所以我觉得,不管是长期还是中期,从价值上看,各部分加起来超过整体价值的情况都不太可能发生。

So, I think it's unlikely that on any long-term basis or an intermediate-term basis that the value of the parts will be greater than the value of the whole.

对抗 activism 最好的防线就是业绩,不过最近有太多钱涌进 activist fund,因为这种方向很容易募资。

The best defense against activism is performance, but lately there's been so much money pouring into activist funds because it's been easy to raise money for that.

我的意思是,过去这几年,这一直是种挺成功的资金管理方式。

I mean, it's been a successful way of handling money.

然后机构资金就开始往里流,consultant 也会推荐,诸如此类。

For the last few years, and institutional money then starts flowing into it, and the consultants recommend it, and all of that sort of thing.

所以我要说的是,就我现在看到的很多 activism,

And so I would say that much of what I see as activism now,

那些人在谈到自己盯上的公司、还有他们声称自己能做到什么的时候,其实都已经有点太牵强了,差不多就是这么回事。

people are really reaching in terms of the kind of companies that they're talking about and the claims of what they can do and that sort of thing.

我觉得最大的问题——你刚才说的是,在我的遗产处理完之后,我的股份会在十年里陆续分发出去,以及这些股份所对应的投票权。

I think the biggest— you know, if you're talking about my shares getting dispensed over 10 years after my estate is settled and the voting power they have.

我觉得等这件事真的发生的时候,Berkshire 的市值很可能已经大到,就算所有 activist 全都联合起来,他们也做不了太多事。

And I think by the time that gets to be a reality, I think the market value of Berkshire is likely to be so great that even if all the activists gathered together, they wouldn't be able to do very much about it.

十年或者二十年后,Berkshire 很可能会真正变成一个非常非常庞大的机构。

Berkshire is likely to really be a very, very large organization in 10 or 20 years.
M3
M32:48

再说,Buffett 的 super voting power 还会持续很长时间。

Besides, Buffett's super voting power is going to last a long time.
M2
M22:51

会持续很久。

It lasts a long time.

对,我一直——我有些朋友会为了别的公司打电话给我,说他们那边来了 activist,他们很担心。

Yeah, I always— I've got these friends that call me with other companies, and they've got an activist, and they're worried about it.

我就跟他们说,把这些人送到 Berkshire 来吧。

I just tell them to send them over to Berkshire.

我们欢迎他们。

We'll welcome them.

我们巴不得他们来买我们的股票,因为他们根本折腾不出什么结果。

We'd love to have them buy our stock because they're not going to get anyplace.

而且这种情况还会持续很长很长时间。

And that's going to be the situation for a long, long time.

我们应该成为一个让别人把 activist 扔过来的地方。

We should be a place where people can dump their activists.

Charlie,轮到你了。

Charlie, you're up.
M3
M33:19

嗯,我觉得挺有意思的一点是,早些年很多——大多数股票的交易价格都远远低于它们的内在价值,那时候美国公司回购自家股票是很少见的。

Well, the thing that I find interesting is in the old days when many— most stocks sold for way less than they were worth in terms of intrinsic value, it was very rare to find an American corporation buying the stock in.
M2
M23:33

哦,对。

Oh yeah.
M3
M33:33

现在很多情况下,是 activist 在大力催促公司去大量回购股票,哪怕那只股票的价格其实已经高于它本身的价值了。

Now, in many cases, the activists are urging corporations to buy the stock in heavily, even though it's selling for more than it's worth.

这不是一种有建设性的做法,也不是一种可取的变化,而且对这些 activist 来说,这也不是很负责任的行为。

This is not a constructive activity, and it's not a desirable change, and it's not a very responsible activity for the activists.
M2
M23:51

就这么一个简单的股票回购行为,围绕它写出来的蠢东西还真是越来越多了。

There's been more stupid stuff written on such a simple activity as stock repurchase.

不光写出来的蠢事多,做出来的蠢事也多。

Both stupid stuff written and stupid stuff done.

我的意思是,在我看来,要不要回购自家股票,其实是个非常简单的决定。

I mean, it's a very simple decision in my view as to whether you repurchase your shares.

你看,只要你已经照顾好了业务本身的需要,而且你的股票价格低于它的内在价值,那你就回购。

You know, you repurchase them if you've taken care of the needs of the business and your stock is selling for less than it's intrinsically worth.

但是——我真看不出这事还能有多复杂。

But that— I don't see how anything could be more simple.

如果你有一家合伙企业,有个合伙人想按这家企业价值的一百二十个百分点卖给你,你肯定会说,算了吧。

If you had a partnership and a partner wanted to sell out to you at 120% of what the business is worth, you'd say, forget it.

如果他想按它价值的百分之八十卖给你,你就会接下来。

And if he wanted to sell out to you at 80% of what it's worth, you'd take it.

这根本不复杂。

It's not complicated.

但现在人们在决定要不要回购股票这件事上,脑子里掺进了太多别的动机。

But there are so many other motivations that have entered into people's minds about deciding whether to repurchase shares or not.

结果很多时候,这个讨论就变得非常拧巴,而且有点可笑。

It's gotten to be a very contorted and kind of silly discussion in many cases.

而且 Charlie 说得对。

And Charlie is right.

如果你去看看股票回购的历史,你就会发现,股票便宜的时候,回购会大幅萎缩;等到股票价格已经很贵、估值打满的时候,回购反而会明显增加。

If you look at the history of share repurchases, you know, it falls off like crazy when stocks are cheap, and it tends to go up dramatically when stocks get fully priced.

但 Berkshire 不会这么干。

But it's not what we'll do at Berkshire.

在 Berkshire 呢,现在——你知道,如果股价是账面价值的一百二十个百分点,我们会非常乐意一筐一筐地买回来,因为我们知道它的真实价值远远不止这个数。

At Berkshire, you know, we will presently— you know, we would love to buy it by the bushel basket at 120% of book because we know it's worth a lot more than that.

我们不知道到底高出多少,但我们知道,肯定高得多。

We don't know how much more, but we know it's worth a lot more.

我们并不常有这种机会,不过一旦真有机会,我们就会大举出手。

And we don't get a chance to do that very often, but if we do get a chance, we'll do it big time.

但如果价格到了账面价值的百分之二百,我们就不会回购了,因为那不值。

But we won't buy it in at 200% of book because it isn't worth it.

你知道,这问题并不复杂,但我见过很多管理层,先宣布说他们要回购价值多少多少的股票,然后不管价格怎么样都照买。

You know, and it's not a complicated question, but people that— I've been around a lot of managements that announce they're going to buy X worth, and then they buy it regardless of price.

很多时候那个价格确实还说得过去,但如果价格不合理,他们看起来也不会停,而且似乎也没人想拦着他们。

And a lot of times the price makes sense, but if it doesn't, they don't seem to stop, and nobody seems to want to stop them.

Charlie?

Charlie?
M3
M35:42

嗯,我当然同意你的看法。

Well, I certainly agree with you.

我不觉得这个 activist 的时代是什么伟大的时代。

I don't think it's a great age, this age of activism.
M2
M25:50

你想展开说说吗?

You want to expand on that?
M3
M35:52

嗯,我很难想到有多少 activist 是我愿意让他娶进家门的。

Well, it's hard for me to think of many activists I want to marry into the family.
M2
M26:02

他要是开始点名,我最好现在就打住。

I better stop before he names names.

好,Greg。

Okay, Greg.