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2001年股东大会 · 做投资前,巴菲特是如何分析一个行业的(以航空业为例)

86 段 · 3 位说话人 · 原片 9:33
M1
M10:00

早上好。

Good morning.

我是 Martin Wiegand,来自 Maryland 的 Chevy Chase。

I'm Martin Wiegand from Chevy Chase, Maryland.
F1
F10:04

很高兴你来到这里,Martin。

Good to have you here, Martin.
M1
M10:05

谢谢。

Thank you.

感谢你们带来这么棒的股东周末,也感谢你们为股东和广大公众提供的领导力和教育。

Thank you for the wonderful shareholder weekend, and thank you for the leadership and education you give your shareholders and the general public.

我的问题是:大型航空公司最近上了新闻,正在谈判劳工合同。

My question: Large airlines are in the news negotiating labor contracts.

他们声称,他们没法把不断上升的劳动力成本转嫁给客户。

They claim they can't pass along rising labor costs to their customers.

你在年报里说,Executive Jet 增长很快,而且经营得非常好。

In the annual report, you say Executive Jet is growing fast and doing great.

Executive Jet 似乎能够把上涨的劳动力成本转嫁给它的客户。

Executive Jet seems to be able to pass along its rising labor costs to its customers.

这是因为 Executive Jet 有一套理性的薪酬方案,能让员工工资和可计费服务保持匹配吗?

Is this because Executive Jet has a rational compensation plan that keeps employee salaries in line with billable services?

如果不是的话,为什么 Executive Jet 表现很好,而航空公司却麻烦不断呢?

If not, why does Executive Jet do well while the airlines experience troubles?
F1
F10:46

嗯,航空公司面临的大问题,并不那么在于它们总体要支付多少钱。

Well, the big problem with the airlines is not so much what their aggregate payments will be.

真正的问题是,当你身处航空业时,如果你的工资水平和竞争对手不在一个档次上。

The real problem is when you're in the airline business and your wage rates are out of line with your competitors.

说到底,分析一家航空公司时要看的数字——当然还有很多别的因素——但起点是每可用座位英里的成本,然后再结合座位数量来分析。

When you get right down to it, the figure to look at with an airline, among a lot of other things, but you start with the cost per available seat mile, and then you work that through based on the number of seats.

再结合运力利用率,算出每——或者说,每已占用座位英里的收入,或者成本。

On the capacity utilization to get to the revenue per—or the cost per occupied seat mile.

这里面可能是劳动力成本,也可能是其他任何成本。

And you could have labor costs or any other cost.

当然,和几年前相比,航空公司的燃油成本已经大幅上升了。

You certainly have fuel costs up dramatically for the airlines from a couple of years ago.

只要你的效率高于竞争对手,而且你的成本不比竞争对手高,人们还是会继续坐飞机。

As long as you're more efficient than your competitor and your costs are not higher than your competitor, people will continue to fly.
M1
M11:48

对。

Yes.
F1
F11:50

真正麻烦的是,当你的成本和竞争对手脱节的时候。几年前 Charlie 和我都当过 US Air 的董事,当时我们每座位英里的成本就比竞争对手高得多。

It's when you get your costs out of line with your competitor, which was the situation that Charlie and I were directors of US Air a few years back, and our cost per seat mile was far higher than competitors.

在东部很多短途航线上,因为我们没有竞争对手,所以那还没问题。

And that was fine where we didn't have competitors on many of the short routes in the East.

但是当 Southwest Airlines 开始进入我们的地盘时,他们的成本——我这是凭记忆说——可能每座位英里还不到八美分,而我们的成本可能是每座位英里十二美分。

But as Southwest Airlines would move into our territory, and they had costs, we'll say—and this is from memory—but they might have had costs of below 8 cents a seat-mile, and our cost might have been 12 cents a seat-mile.

你知道,那样的话——你迟早会被打垮。

You know, that is—you're going to get killed eventually.

他们今年可能还进不了这条航线,但明年或者后年就会进来。

They may not get to this route this year, but they'll get there next year or the year after.

所以,如果你经营的是一家大型航空公司,像 Delta、United 或者别的什么公司,只要你的成本,尤其是劳动力成本,和其他主要竞争对手持平甚至更低,这对你来说比绝对成本水平要重要得多。

So if you're running a big airline, a Delta or United or whatever, if your costs are on parity or less, labor costs, than your other major competitors, that is much more important to you than the absolute level.

而 NetJets 的服务,其实并不是为了和 United Airlines、American,或者这类公司直接竞争而设计的。

And the NetJets service is not really designed to be competitive with United Airlines or an American or something of that sort.

它面对的是另一组竞争对手。

It has a different group of competitors.

而且我觉得,我们那里的飞行员团队真的是非常非常出色,我们也希望他们工作得开心。

And I think we have an absolutely terrific pilot force there, and we want them to be happy.

不过还有很多别的办法。

But there's a lot of other ways.

我的意思是,你当然要公平地支付他们薪酬;但就拿我们的飞行员来说,举个例子,在很多情况下,对他们来说非常重要的一点是,能住在他们想住的地方,并且能上我们可以提供的那种班次。

I mean, you want to pay them fairly, but with our pilots, for example, it's extremely important to them in many cases to be able to live where they want to and to work the kind of shifts that we can offer.

所以,我们是通过很多别的方式来吸引他们,而不是去跟 United Airlines 或者 American Airlines 竞价。

So we attract them in many other ways than bidding against United Airlines or American Airlines.

很重要的一点是——在像航空座位这种带有大宗商品性质的生意里,如果你的人工成本明显高于竞争对手,你就是没法长期做下去。

Big thing in— you just, you can't take labor costs that are materially higher than your competitor, uh, in a business that has commodity-like characteristics such as airline seats.

你长期下来就是做不了。

You just can't do it over time.

你可以暂时撑一阵子,但迟早在资本主义社会里,规律就是成本更低的那个人会进来把你干掉。

And you can get away with it for a while, but sooner or later, the nature of a capitalist society is that the guy with the lower costs comes in and kills you.

Charlie?

Charlie?
M2
M24:04

航空业的工会真的非常强硬,而且很有意思的是,像航空飞行员这种收入已经很高的一群人,却有着这么强硬、这么不好对付的工会结构。

The airline unions are really tough, and it's interesting to see a group of people that are paid as well as airline pilots with such a brutally tough union structure.

这在一种大宗商品式的生意里,确实会让事情变得非常困难,而且任何一家航空公司都承受不起长时间停摆,不然就会对乘客的出行习惯和未来前景造成相当大的影响。

And that really makes it hard in a commodity-style business, and no individual airline can take a long shutdown without having considerable effects on habit patterns and future prospects.

这个行业从性质上来说就是非常难做。

It's just a very tough business by its nature.

客运铁路旅行,哪怕是在过去那个时代,也一直是个很难赚到钱的生意;航空旅行其实也没什么本质不同。我们只是希望,客户会比起一张普通航空座位更偏好我们的服务。

Passenger rail travel, even in a previous era, was a pretty tough way to make a buck, and nothing is all that different with airline travel; we hope that our services are preferred by customers more than one airline seat is preferred compared to another.
F1
F15:12

Fractional ownership 不是一种大宗商品式的生意。

Fractional ownership is not a commodity business.

我的意思是,人们非常非常在意服务,以及对安全的那种确定感。

I mean, the people care enormously about service and the assurance of safety.

我也不觉得——你知道,我不觉得如果你是在买降落伞,你一定会想选那个报价最低的。

And I don't think that— you know, I don't think if you were buying a parachute, you'd want to take the— necessarily take the low bid.

然后——

And—.
M2
M25:33

对。

Yeah.
F1
F15:35

现在,对于那些大型商业航空公司来说,它们有几百万几百万的乘客,人们,我觉得,而且这种想法大概也是对的,会认为它们

Now, with the big commercial airlines with millions and millions of passengers, people, I think, probably correctly assume that there's quite a similarity

在服务和安全这两方面其实都挺相似的。

in both service and safety.

但如果你所在的行业是承受不起长时间罢工的,那你基本上就是在跟工会玩一种 chicken game,你知道,因为如果公司关门,他们也会丢掉工作。

But if you're in a business that cannot take a long strike, you're basically playing a game of chicken, you know, with your labor unions, because they're gonna lose their jobs too if you close down.

所以你们其实是在周期性地玩这种 chicken game。

So you're playing a game of chicken periodically.

这里面有很多——你知道,会牵涉到很多博弈,很多 game theory。

And it has a lot— there's a lot of games, you know, a lot of game theory that gets involved.
M1
M16:10

对。

Yeah.
F1
F16:11

某种程度上,你知道,你越弱,反而你的谈判位置可能越好。

To some extent, you know, the weaker you are, the better your bargaining position is.

因为如果你弱到极点,那么哪怕一次很短的罢工也会让你直接倒闭。

Because if you're extremely weak, even a very short strike will put you out of business.

而谈判桌对面的人是明白这一点的。

And the people who are on the other side of the negotiating table understand that.

但如果你本身还有相当的实力,他们反而就能更用力地逼你。

Whereas if you have a fair amount of strength, they can push you harder.

不过,身处一个连罢工都承受不起的行业,真不是什么好事。

But it is no fun being in a business where you cannot take a strike.

我们在八十年代初的时候就遇到过一次这种情况。

We faced that one time back in the early '80s.

那时候我们在 Buffalo 跟 Courier-Express 打一种你死我活的仗。

When there were— we were in kind of a death struggle in Buffalo with the Courier-Express.

我买下 Buffalo News 的时候——其实是 Charlie 买的。

And when I bought the Buffalo News— actually, Charlie did.

他当时因为暴风雪被困在那儿,待得无聊了。

He was stranded there during a snowstorm, and he got bored.

所以他就打电话给我,说,我该干点什么?

So he called me and said, what should I do?

我说,那你还不如直接把这家报纸买下来。

I said, well, you might as well buy the paper.

所以当时我们就在这种较劲当中。后来——不过当我们买下 Buffalo News 的时候,我们问了管理层两个问题,其中一个我不能告诉你们,呃,不过第二个是,我们想见一见几个关键工会的领导人,我们想跟他们说明白:听着,如果你们哪怕只是罢工一段不短的时间,我们就得关门。

And so we were in this struggle, and when—but when we bought the Buffalo News, we had two questions of the management, and one of them I can't tell you, uh, but the second one was we wanted to meet with the key union leaders, and we wanted to tell them, lookit, if you ever strike us for any length, significant length of time, we're out of business.

你知道,你们是可以让我们的投资变得一文不值的。

You know, you can, you can make our investment valueless.

所以我们真的想当面看看你们,看看你们到底是什么样的人。

So we really want to look you in the eye and see what kind of people you are.

在我们把这张支票开出去之前。

Before we write this check.

后来我们对这些人感觉相当不错,他们也确实是很好的人。

And we felt quite good about the people, and they were good people.

到了一九八一年左右,有一次是一个非常非常小的工会,我想还不到我们员工总数的百分之二,因为一个问题发起了罢工,而另外那十个或者十一个工会,其实并没有多认同他们的立场。

And we had one situation in 1981 or thereabouts where a very, very small union, I think less than 2% of our employees, struck over an issue that the other 10 or 11 unions really didn't agree with them that much on.

但他们还是罢工了,而其他工会也遵守了纠察线,这一点你——

But they struck, and the other unions observed the picket line, which you—
M1
M17:58

没错。

That's right.
F1
F17:59

在像 Buffalo 这样一个非常支持工会的城市里,你也会预料到他们会这么做。

Would expect them to do in a strongly pro-union town such as Buffalo.

而且我记得,如果我没记错的话,他们是在周一开始罢工的。我记得其他一些工会的领导人谈到这事时,眼里都带着泪,因为他们看得出来,这会把我们逼到倒闭。

And I think, as I remember, they struck on a Monday, and I remember leaders of some of the other unions actually with tears in their eyes over this, because they, they could see it was going to put us out of business.

坦白说,我当时就表了个态,我说,听着,如果你们一天之内回来,我知道我们还有竞争力。

And frankly, I just took the position then, I said, lookit, if you come back in a day, I know we're competitive.

如果你们一年以后才回来,我知道我们就没有竞争力了。

If you come back in a year, I know we will not be competitive.

如果你们聪明到能精确算出,究竟可以把我们逼到哪一步,然后再回来时我们还有生意、你们还有工作,我说,那你们比我聪明。

And if you're smart enough to figure out where exactly the point is that you can push us to and still come back and we have a business and you have jobs, I said, you're smarter than I am.

所以,你们回去自己想清楚吧。

So, you know, go home and figure it out.

结果他们周四就回来了,我们也再次变得很有竞争力。

And they came back in on Thursday and we became very competitive again.

但他们本来完全可能——我是说,这事已经不在我掌控之中了。

But they could have—I mean, it was out of my hands.

我没法逼他们干活。

I couldn't make them work.

如果他们决定在外面耗得够久,我们这份报纸就办不下去了。

And if they decided they were going to stay out long enough, we were not going to have a newspaper.

而这种情况,就是你偶尔会发现自己身处其中的那种局面。

And that's the kind of situation occasionally you find yourself in.

我会说,airline industry 就是一个很好的例子,很多人会周期性地陷入这种处境。

And I would say the airline industry is a good example of where people find themselves in that position periodically.

Charlie,你还有要补充的吗?

Charlie, do you have any more?
M2
M29:11

嗯,关于我们 NetJets 项目在竞争优势这件事上,股东们可能会有兴趣知道:就在另一架包机在 Aspen 坠毁的那一天,NetJets 完全拒绝飞进 Aspen。

Well, the shareholders may be interested to know vis-à-vis competitive advantages in our NetJets program, that the day that other charter plane crashed in Aspen, NetJets refused to fly into Aspen at all.

人们会记住这种事。

People remember that kind of thing.
F1
F19:32

对。

Yeah.

二区?

Zone 2?