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2000年股东大会 · 巴菲特点评企业高管的金色降落伞退休礼包

83 段 · 3 位说话人 · 原片 8:46
M1
M10:00

下午好,Buffett 先生,Munger 先生。

Good afternoon, Mr. Buffett and Mr. Munger.

我叫 Bob Odom,来自 Washington 州的 Seattle。

My name is Bob Odom from Seattle, Washington.

首先我想说,能来到 Omaha 真是太好了,而且这里的人也让我感觉特别自在。

I'd like to say, first of all, how nice it is to come out to Omaha and how I am made to feel comfortable by its people.

我希望今后这些年里,你们二位还能像现在看起来这样,对这场股东大会一直这么有热情。

I hope you both are as enthusiastic about the meeting as you seem to be in years to come.

对了,Munger 先生,我也很期待您的书出版。

Mr. Munger, by the way, I am looking forward to your book coming out.

我的问题是关于 Doug Ivester 的离职补偿方案。

My question has to do with Doug Ivester's severance package.

考虑到他担任 CEO 的时间非常短,而且他接手时,Goizueta 已经把业绩做得非常强了,结果后来还得由 Doug Daft 来收拾他那相当糟糕的表现,那到底是什么理由能让这份补偿合理呢?

And what justifies it, considering he had a very short tenure as CEO and that he took the reins from some very strong performance from Goizueta, and to, uh, be relieved of his dismal performance by Doug Daft?

我哥哥现在还在做 Coke 的装瓶和分销生意,他从 Bottlers World 杂志上剪下了一篇关于这份离职补偿的文章。

My brother, still in the bottling and distribution business of Coke, cut this article from Bottlers World magazine concerning the severance package.

他说,要是有人给他开这种条件,他也愿意马上退休。

He said he also would retire if he were offered this.

嗯,九千七百四十万美元的股票。

Uh, $97.4 million in stock.

二零零零年到二零零二年,每年三百万美元。

$3 million per year for 2000 to 2002.

二零零二年到二零零七年,每年两百万美元。

$2 million per year 2002 to 2007.

从二零零七年开始,在他余生里每年一百四十万美元。

$1.4 million per year from 2007 for the rest of his life.

另外,我也不明白,啊,车和手机,他为什么还能拿这些。

Anyway, I don't see how, ah, car and cell phone, he gets that.

那是一辆 Mercury Grand Marquis,还有移动电话、laptop computer 之类的东西。

That's a Mercury Grand Marquis and the mobile telephones, laptop computer, and the like.

我不知道他为什么还需要这些。

I don't know why he'd need that.

嗯,总之,我一直想知道您当时对这件事是怎么投票的,您到底支不支持,支持到什么程度;毕竟 Berkshire 的高管薪酬这些年基本没涨过,除了 CFO 也许例外——我记得他上一次加薪还是在一九九七年。

Uh, anyway, I've been wondering how you voted on this, whether you supported it or not, or to what degree, considering executive pay at Berkshire hasn't risen except perhaps for the CFO, who last got a raise, I believe, in 1997.
M2
M21:51

你刚才问——不,CFO 每年都加薪。

You asked— no, CFO's gotten a raise every year.
M1
M11:53

但是——

But the—.
M2
M21:54

你问的是我支不支持这件事。

You asked whether I supported it.

对,这个我可以告诉你,我支持,因为我持有 Coca-Cola 百分之八股份中的百分之三十五经济权益,所以这笔钱差不多有百分之三是我个人掏的。

Yeah, I can tell you I supported it, because with my 35% interest in 8% of Coca-Cola, I paid almost 3% of it myself personally.

就个人而言,我付出的离职补偿金,可能比世界历史上任何一个人都多。

I probably paid more severance pay than any man in the history of the world personally.

我当时不在 comp committee 里,不过这点我还是要说。

I was not on the comp committee, but I will say this.

Doug Ivester 这些年来确实为 Coca-Cola Company 做了很多非常了不起的事。

Doug Ivester did all kinds of really wonderful things for the Coca-Cola Company over time.

很多很多年里,在 Roberto 掌管公司期间,Doug 一直都在,还有跟 Don Keough 一起共事这些事——而且这个情况我是直接从他们两个人那里听到的。

He was— for many, many years when Roberto was running things, Doug, and working with Don Keough too, and, you know, I had this firsthand from both of them.

我当时不在 Atlanta,不过——

I wasn't in Atlanta, but—.
M1
M12:38

我在。

I was.
M2
M22:39

但毫无疑问,他是一个非常非常重要的资产,而且很多事情都是他构想并执行的,只不过功劳可能被别人拿得更多。

But there was no question that he was a huge, huge asset and conceived and carried out many of the things that other people may have gotten even more credit for.

你刚才说的大部分内容——最后那些小项目不算——大部分在他离开的时候,都是合同里早就写好的。

Most of what you described, not the little things at the end, but most of what you described was contractually in place at the time that he left.

我的意思是,那些安排,包括 restricted stock 之类的,很多其实都是在 Roberto 担任 chief executive officer 时就已经形成了,而且也是 Roberto 推荐的。

I mean, those were deals that were made, restricted stock and all of that, that really occurred in significant part when Roberto was the chief executive officer and at Roberto's recommendation.

Doug 对 Coke 的投入,他对 Coke 的了解——我是说,他真的是整个人都活在 Coke 里,吃的是 Coke,呼吸的也是 Coke。

Doug's devotion to Coke, his knowledge of Coke— I mean, he lived and ate and breathed Coke.

但在我看来,Doug Daft 才是那个最适合这份工作的人。后来确实做了调整,不过那并不是因为 Doug Ivester 不够上心。

But in my opinion, Doug Daft was the man for the job, and a change was made, but it was not because of any lack of attention by Doug Ivester.

也不是因为他在公司当 CFO 的时候没做出很了不起的成绩,而是我觉得,在他接任 CEO 的那个时点上,他不是最合适的人。

It was not because he hadn't done great things as CFO of the company, but I think he was not the right man at the time he took over as CEO.

你们也知道,他接手的时候,Roberto 是非常突然地去世了。

He took over, as you know, when Roberto died quite suddenly.

当时其实也没什么真正别的选择——他本来就是 Roberto 亲自挑定的接班人。

There wasn't any real option in terms of the— he was Roberto's handpicked successor.

在那个时候,几乎很难想象会选别人。

It's almost inconceivable that somebody else would have been chosen at that time.

后来过了大概两年,我们作出判断,觉得由 Doug Daft 来掌舵,公司会走得更快,也会更好。

And we made a decision within a couple of years that the company would move faster and better with Doug Daft in charge.

然后我们谈了一个离职补偿的安排,呃,其中大概有百分之八十,或者说一个非常高的比例,是用现金支付的。

And we made a deal, uh, in severance which, uh, was about 80% or some very high percentage in cash.

而且就像我说的,那里面我掏的钱比任何人都多。

And like I say, I paid more of it than anybody else.

所以这不是,不是那种纯纸上谈兵的事。

So it isn't, it isn't like it was all academic.

呃,我觉得再考虑到另外一些因素——也许我以后会写在书里——这些因素也都算在里面了。

Uh, and I think considering some other factors which maybe I'll put in a book sometime, that entered into it.

对 Coca-Cola Company 来说,那毫无疑问是个正确的决定。

It was definitely the right decision for the Coca-Cola Company.

至于电脑该不该算进去,车该不该算进去,或者别的什么,我没法——我也不想一项一项去替这些小项目辩护。

Whether the computer should have been included, the car, or anything, I can't— I would not want to defend small item by small item.

但我可以说,我认为从长远来看,因为当时做了那个决定,Coca-Cola 的股东最终会多赚很多很多个十亿美元。

But I can— I think the Coca-Cola shareholders are going to be many billions of dollars ahead over time by what was done then.

而且那也不是个容易做出的决定。

And it wasn't easy to do.

我们来看第五个问题。

We'll go to 5.

Charlie,你对这个还有什么要补充的吗?

And Charlie, do you have anything to add on that?

你当时也出了不少钱。

You paid a fair amount too.
M3
M35:02

总体来说,我觉得 American 企业界犯了个错误,就是它们因为给公司主要高管发薪酬的方式,制造了太多敌意。更让人恼火的是,还非要加上一些小条款,说公司还要替这个人额外照顾点什么,你知道,就是一些鸡毛蒜皮的小东西,但看起来特别难看。

Generally speaking, I think it's a mistake for corporate America to create as much hostility as it does, which is based on the way it compensates principal officers of corporations, it is simply maddening to add a little clause that the corporation will scratch the guy's back for, you know, just tiny little bits of stuff that looks terrible.

在我看来,这简直蠢到极点。

To me, that is extremely stupid.

我还见过这种情况:一个人离职之后,公司还帮他报税,一帮就是十年,诸如此类。

And I see it where the corporation helps him prepare his tax return for 10 years after he leaves and so forth.

我觉得这会给股东留下非常糟糕的印象,我也觉得 American 企业界这么干真是疯了。

I think that makes a terrible impression on shareholders generally, and I think corporate America is crazy to do it.

这些鬼东西都是那些该死的顾问卖给他们的。

They get sold this stuff by these damn consultants.
M2
M25:55

对,我同意 Charlie 的看法。

Yeah, I agree with Charlie.

而且——Charlie 说的确实没错。

And what— it is true what Charlie says.

至少据我所知,在 Berkshire,我们没有这种合同。

We don't have a contract, at least that I can think of, at Berkshire.

没有这些东西,经营一家公司也完全很容易。

It's perfectly easy to run a company without them.

我们有非常出色的经理人。

We've got wonderful managers.

你知道,我们有些东西也许可以叫作合同。

You know, we've got things that might be called contracts.

我是说,我们会和他们有一些约定,比如我们会告诉他们——我们会把薪酬安排这些事情都谈好。

I mean, we've got deals with them in terms of we tell them what— we work out compensation arrangements and all that.

我们——我,我想不起来有哪个跟我们一起共事的人,曾经找过律师之类的,你知道,或者——或者我们甚至还得把事情基本上写成书面文件。

We— I, I can't remember a case of anybody that's been with us that ever has called in a lawyer or anything of the sort, you know, or, or the— or we even had to reduce things to writing, basically.

而且这样运作得挺好。

And it works fine.

而且就像 Charlie 说的那样,看到一个 CEO 带着律师,拿着一份二十页的合同过来,确实有点让人恼火。

And it is a little maddening, as Charlie says, to have, have, uh, a CEO, you know, show up with a lawyer with a 20-page contract.

我是说,这已经变成标准操作流程了。

I mean, it's become standard operating procedure.

一旦你到了那种大型上市公司,有各种委员会、给委员会提供咨询的顾问,而这些顾问通常又是公司高管挑的,他们就会看看别人都在怎么做,然后说,嗯,别人是这么干的,那我也这么干。

And once you get a big public company with committees, consultants to the committees, consultants who usually are picked by the officers of the company, they look around at what everybody else is doing and say, well, that's the way the other guy does it, so I'll do it.

我觉得你可以——我觉得,过去二十年的 proxy statements,它们实际上诱导出了一种行为模式:一些情况差不多的公司,会去看竞争对手的 proxy statements,然后对自己的律师说,嗯,你知道,Joe Blow 都拿到了这个,我为什么不能有?

I think you could— I think the proxy statements of the last 20 years, what that's induced in the way of behavior by people at somewhat comparable companies that look at the proxy statements of their competitors and then say to their lawyer, well, you know, Joe Blow got this, why shouldn't I have it?

结果就是一路往上加、往上加、往上加,不断卡着往上拧,而且根本停不下来。

It just escalates and escalates and escalates, and it ratchets, and it won't stop.

我从来没见过哪个薪酬顾问进了一家上市公司之后,会建议一个能在总体上降低薪酬成本的方案。

I have never seen a compensation consultant come into a public company and suggest a plan that net reduces the, you know, the cost of compensation.

而且我看到各种各样的人离开公司时,已经赚了巨额的钱,可是却没有人愿意用他们原来价格的一半、四分之一,甚至十分之一去雇他们,你知道。

And I see all kinds of people leave companies with— who have made tremendous amounts of money, and nobody wants to hire them at half the price or a quarter of the price or a tenth of the price, you know.

我是说,这根本不是一个市场体系。

I mean, it's not a market system.

CEO 薪酬不是一个市场体系,而且它也不接受市场检验。

CEO compensation is not a market system, and it's not subject to market tests.

至于这个问题到底该怎么办,我也不是特别清楚,不过我——这件事看起来并没有太困扰股东。

And I don't know what you do about that particularly, but I, uh— it doesn't seem to bother shareholders very much.

那些本来能改变这件事的人——

The ones that could change it—.
M3
M37:59

我觉得这非常困扰他们,Warren。

I think it bothers them a lot, Warren.

只是他们觉得自己无能为力。

It's just they feel powerless.
M2
M28:03

对,但机构股东本来是可以改变这件事的。

Yeah, but institutional shareholders could change that.

我的猜测是,排名前三十的机构投资者,大概控制着这个国家大型公司的——多少,三分之二吧,可他们看起来并没有那么在意。

My guess is that the top 30 institutions probably control, um, what, 2/3 of the big companies in the country, and, and they don't, they don't seem to care that much.

实际上,他们把时间都花在那些我认为是边缘性的问题上。

They actually, they spend their time on, on what I regard as peripheral issues.

通常他们谈的都是别的事情。

Usually they, they talk about other things.

他们会卷入一些公司治理的仪式化动作里,坦白说,这些东西对公司经营表现根本没有任何实质意义,而他们似乎却忽视了这些别的问题。

They get involved in, in rituals of corporate governance that frankly don't mean a damn in terms of how the company performs, and they seem to ignore these other issues.

不过你知道,经营 Berkshire 我们已经有够多事情要做了,所以在这件事上,我们没法去改革世界。

But, you know, there's— we got enough to do running Berkshire, so we, we can't reform the world on that.

我们会用理性的方式来经营 Berkshire,到现在为止,我们还从来没请过薪酬顾问,而且我们也从来没失去过一个重要的经理人。

We will run Berkshire in a rational manner, and we have yet to hire a compensation consultant, and we've yet to lose an important manager.

好,我们来看第五个问题。

Okay, we'll go to number 5.