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2002年股东大会 · 好的反馈机制对于成功投资者的重要意义

91 段 · 3 位说话人 · 原片 9:17
M1
M10:00

好的,我叫 Paul Tomsak,来自 Illinois。我想聊聊你们是怎么思考的,如果你们不介意的话。

Okay, my name's Paul Tomsak from Illinois, and I'd like to talk about your thinking, if you don't mind.

在你寄给所有股东的那篇 Fortune 杂志文章里,你提到 Darwin 有个做法:当他发现有什么东西跟他已经形成的结论相反时,他会立刻把它记下来,因为不然的话,人的大脑会把它排挤出去。

In the Fortune magazine article that you sent to all the shareholders, you referenced a practice by Darwin that when he found something that was contrary to his established conclusions, he quickly wrote it down because the mind would have pushed it out.

而且如果你读过《The Origin of Species》,你会发现 Darwin 非常小心,尽量避免自我欺骗。

And if you read The Origin of Species, Darwin's very careful to avoid fooling himself.
M2
M20:27

对。

Yes.
M1
M10:27

他会非常认真地提出那些难的问题,再认真地回答它们。

He very carefully asks and answers the hard questions.

这就是一种反馈机制,而你借鉴了他的其中一种反馈机制,来避免骗到自己。

It's a feedback mechanism, and you've picked up on one of his feedback mechanisms to avoid fooling yourself.

所以我有两个问题:如果你去看你是怎么思考的、Charlie 是怎么思考的、物理学家是怎么思考的、数学家是怎么思考的,你会看到同样一种模式。

So the 2 questions are this: if you look at the model of how you think, Charlie thinks, how physicists think, how mathematicians think, you see the same pattern.

你想运用逻辑。

You want to use logic.

你致力于逻辑。

You're dedicated to logic.

但是光有逻辑还不够。

But logic's not enough.
M2
M20:53

对。

No.
M1
M10:54

你还得避免自我欺骗,所以你会建立反馈机制。

You have to avoid fooling yourself, so you build feedback mechanisms.

所以第一个问题是,你是不是也这么看:你们的思考方式,其实和数学家、物理学家,还有一些特别杰出的商人一样,既讲逻辑,也很注意建立反馈机制来保持谨慎?

So the first question is, do you see it that way, that you're thinking just like mathematicians, physicists, and some of the other exceptional businessmen by being logical and being careful to have feedback mechanisms?

第二个问题,是关于其他反馈机制。

And the second question is about other feedback mechanisms.

坐在你旁边的这位合伙人,就是一个很强大的反馈机制。

Your partner sitting next to you is a great feedback mechanism.

当你的合伙人是 Charlie Munger 的时候,你很难骗过自己,对吧?

It's hard to fool yourself when you partner with Charlie Munger, right?
M2
M21:21

对。

Right.
M3
M31:22

对。

Right.
M1
M11:22

这场会议本身也是一种反馈——

This meeting's a feedback—
M3
M31:23

要骗过他也很难。

Hard to fool him, too.
M1
M11:27

但那不是偶然的。

But that's not an accident.

这场会议,从某种层面上来说,就是一种反馈机制。

The meeting, on one level, is a feedback mechanism.

你写 annual report letter 的方式,也是一种反馈机制。

The way you attack the annual report letter is a feedback mechanism.

所以你们两位能不能谈谈,你们还建立过哪些其他的反馈机制?

So could you comment, both of you, on other feedback mechanisms you developed?

谢谢。

Thank you.
M3
M31:40

嗯,你已经举出两个非常好的例子了。

Well, you've come up with 2 very good ones.

我是说,毫无疑问,Charlie 不会因为这是我说的,他就照单全收;但很多其他人会这样。

I mean, there's no question that Charlie will not accept anything I say because I say it, whereas a lot of other people will.

你知道,我是说,这就是这个世界运作的方式。

You know, I mean, it's just the way the world works.

而有一个合伙人会直接跟你说,你这个想法不对路,这真是太好了。

And it's terrific to have a partner who will say, you know, you're not thinking straight.
M2
M22:05

这种情况不会经常发生。

It doesn't happen very often.
M3
M32:07

毫无疑问,人类的大脑——人最擅长做的事情,就是把所有新信息都解释成能让自己原来的结论保持不变。

There's no question the human mind— what the human being is best at doing is interpreting all new information so that their prior conclusions remain intact.

我的意思是,这个本事,好像每个人都已经练得炉火纯青了。

I mean, that is, that is a talent everyone seems to have mastered.

那,我们怎么防着自己犯这种毛病呢?

And, and how do we guard ourselves against it?

这个嘛,我们做不到完美。

Well, we don't, we don't achieve it perfectly.

我的意思是,Charlie 和我都犯过大错,本质上就是因为我们不愿意,呃,不愿意重新去看一件事情。

I mean, Charlie and I have made big mistakes because, in effect, we have been unwilling to, uh, to look afresh at something.

呃,呃,呃,你知道,这种事就是会发生。

Uh, uh, uh, you know, that happens.

不过我们确实有——我觉得 annual report 就是一个很好的反馈机制。

But we do have— I think the annual report is a good feedback mechanism.

我觉得对自己做汇报,尤其是如果你能诚实地汇报,不管你是通过 annual report,还是通过别的什么机制去做,都是非常有用的。

I think that reporting on yourself, and particularly if you can report honestly, whether you do it through an annual report or do it through some other mechanism, is very useful.

不过我会说,一个不盲从、而且自己又极其讲逻辑的合伙人,你知道,可能是你能拥有的最好机制。

But then I would say a partner who is not subservient and who himself is extremely logical, you know, is probably the best mechanism you can have.

而且我还想说——反过来说,回到看问题这件事上,你得确保自己不要掉进这样一个陷阱:我会说,典型的公司组织结构,往往就是被设计成用一切可能的方式去强化 CEO 的看法、偏见和既有信念。

And I would say that on— On the contrary, to get back to looking at things, you have to be sure you don't fall into, I would say, the typical corporate organization is designed so that the CEO's opinions and biases and previous beliefs are reinforced in every possible way.

我的意思是,你身边如果都是知道你想做什么的人,那你就不会听到太多相反的意见。

I mean, having staff around you that know what you want to do, you are not going to get a lot of contrary thinking.

我是说,大多数 staff,如果他们知道你想买一家公司,最后给你的就会是一份支持买下来的建议。

I mean, most staffs, if they know you want to buy a company, you're going to get a recommendation.

不管你的 hurdle rate 是多少,比如百分之十五的 internal rate of return——而实际上很少有交易最后真能做到这个水平——或者百分之十二,或者——他们最后都会给你一个他们觉得你想要的结果。

Whatever your hurdle rate, if it's 15% internal rate of return, which very few deals ever work out at, you know, or 12%, or— they're going to come back with whatever they feel that you want.

如果你的组织安排成这样:基本上就是养了一群,怎么说呢,披着别的头衔外衣的马屁精,那你就得不到——你原来的结论会原封不动地保留下来,你带着什么偏见进去,最后就会得到你偏见想要的东西,而董事会在这件事上也起不到多大的制衡作用。

And if you arrange your organization so that you basically have a bunch of, you know, sycophants who are cloaked in other, you know, titles, you're not gonna get— you're going to leave your prior conclusions intact and you're gonna get whatever you go in with your biases wanting, and the board is not gonna be much of a check on that.

我见过的董事会里,真的非常非常少有能在某件 CEO 非常看重的事情上顶住他,然后直接说,你不能这么干的。

I've seen very, very few boards that can stand up to the CEO on something that's important to the CEO and just say, you know, you're not going to get it.

所以,我——你提到了一个特别重要的问题,那就是,我们这个房间里的每一个人,都希望读到的新信息能够印证自己珍视的信念。

So, I— you've hit on a terribly important point that, you know, all of us in this room want to read new information and have it confirm our cherished beliefs.

我的意思是,这就是人类系统里自带的东西。

I mean, it is just built into the human system.

而这在投资和商业世界里,代价可能会非常高。

And that can be very expensive in the investment and business world.

而且就像我说的,我觉得我们的系统还算相当不错;但我也觉得,在 American corporate 里现有的大多数系统,都不太擅长避免掉进你刚才说的那个陷阱。

And like I say, I think we've got a pretty good system, and I think that most of the systems aren't very good that exist in corporate America to avoid falling in the trap you're talking about.

Charlie?

Charlie?
M2
M25:20

对,我觉得还有一点也很有帮助,就是哪怕这么做会相当痛苦,你也得愿意掉头改方向。

Yeah, I think it also helps to be willing to reverse course even when it's quite painful.

就我们现在坐在这儿这个时点来看,我觉得 Berkshire 是 America 唯一一家还在逐步退出 derivative book 的大型公司。

As we sit here, I think Berkshire is the only big corporation in America that is running off a derivative book.

而我们当初做过决定,允许 General Re 的 derivative book 继续保留下去。

And we originally made the decision to allow the General Re derivative book to continue.

要把那个决定反过来,是件非常不愉快的事,但我们完全愿意这么做。

It's a very unpleasant thing to do to reverse that decision, yet we're perfectly willing to do it.

别人谁都没这么做,但至少在我看来,这已经再明显不过了——如果说 America 的 derivative accounting 像下水道,那简直都是对下水道的侮辱。

Nobody else is doing it, and yet it's perfectly obvious, at least to me, that to say that derivative accounting in America is a sewer is an insult to sewage.
M3
M36:07

对,我,我,我赞同这个说法。

Yeah, I would, I would, I would second that.

我可能不会用一模一样的措辞,而且我们以后解释为什么退出的时候,甚至也未必会用这些词,不过,呃,没错,而且在今年第一季度,我们会体现出相当可观的一笔收益。

I might not have chosen those exact words, and we may not even use those words in describing why we got out of it, but, uh, yeah, and in the first quarter of this year, we'll show quite a bit of income.

我们在这儿说的任何话,都应该放到互联网,Marc。

And anything we say here, we ought to put on the internet, Marc.

不过我想我们会体现出,什么来着,一点六亿美元左右的 financial——或者也可能是一点四亿美元。

But I think we'll show, what, $160 million or something like that of financial— or maybe it's $140 million.

我来看看。

I'll take a look here.

对,我们在那个有点搞笑的小项目里,也就是 financial income 那一栏,会有大概一亿六千万美元出头的收入。

Yeah, we'll have $160-odd million of income in that funny little line we have from financial income.

不过,那得是在先计入八千八百万美元亏损之后,这个亏损主要是我们开始迈出第一步,退出 General Re——也就是以前叫 General Re Financial Products 的衍生品账簿。

But that will be after an $88 million loss in terms of getting the first steps of getting out of the General Re— what used to be called General Re Financial Products derivative book.

你知道,那些亏损本来就在那里。

You know, those losses were there.

我是说,其中一部分是关停带来的损失,大概有三千万美元左右是遣散费之类的支出。

I mean, some of that is the shutdown loss, $30 million or thereabouts is severance pay and that sort of thing.
M1
M17:13

对。

Right.
M3
M37:15

事实是,这个国家的衍生品会计处理糟糕透顶,而且有很多公司其实不愿意正视一个问题:如果他们真的要退出,会牵涉到什么。

The truth is that derivative accounting is absolutely terrible in this country, and there are a lot of companies that will not want to face up to what would be involved if they actually got out.

现在,你已经看到 Enron 正在以非常大规模的方式把衍生品会计问题摊开、倒出来。

Now, you're seeing derivative accounting unwound at Enron in a very major way.

而且你相信我,这绝不是在盈利的情况下了结的,除非破产法院允许他们撤销某些合约。

And believe me, it's not being unwound at a profit, except to the extent that the bankruptcy court lets them disaffirm certain contracts.

我的意思是,在像 Enron 这样的地方,最有可能造假数字的地方,恐怕没有哪儿比衍生品交易台更严重了。

And I mean, it is— there was no place where there was as much potential for phonying numbers at a place like Enron than in the derivative counter.

他们是在 mark to model。

They were marking to model.

他们在搞这些所有的花样。

They were doing all these things.

你给一大群交易员这种能力,让他们只要在一张根本没人真正能核实的纸上写几个小数字,就能创造出收入,那这个东西,你知道,真的——很容易就失控。

You give a whole bunch of traders the ability to create income by putting little numbers down on a piece of paper that nobody can really check, and it, you know, it just— it can get out of control.
M1
M18:06

对。

Right.
M3
M38:06

它就是会失控。

It will get out of control.

所以我们最后决定硬着头皮处理这个问题,然后退出。

And so, we decided finally to bite the bullet on it, and we get out of it.

顺便说一句,如果我们继续留在里面,我们是不会报告这八千八百万美元亏损的。

And it would— incidentally, we would not have reported $88 million of loss if we'd stayed in it.

可能反而还会报出一点点利润之类的。

Might have reported a tiny profit or something.

但说到底,你知道,亏损本来就在那里。

But in the end, you know, the loss was there.

而且这方面后面还很可能会继续冒出一些问题,因为一旦你进入衍生品,我们最长的一份合约,我想可能要跑四十年之类的。

And there will be— there could well be some more to come in that because once you get into derivatives, I think our longest contract may run 40 years or something like that.

而把这份四十年合约记到账上的那个人,基本上很可能在当周就因为做成这单拿到报酬了。

And the guy who put the 40-year contract on the book probably got paid, you know, that week for putting it on virtually.

然后呢,你知道,我们现在只能靠一大堆假设,去推测这四十年里事情最后会怎么发展。

And, you know, we've got a bunch of assumptions as to how it's all going to work out over 40 years.
M1
M18:51

这——

It—.
M3
M38:51

你根本想不出还有比这更糟糕的制度。

You couldn't devise a worse system.

归根结底,你知道,我们当初进入这个业务的时候,其实就不想待在这个业务里,而我们现在正在退出的过程中。

And in the end, you know, we didn't want to be in the business when we got in it, and we are now in the process of getting out.

但是像这样的东西,你没法很快退出。

But you don't get out fast of something like this.

没法很快退出这样的东西。

Out fast of something like this.

我的意思是,这个吧,你知道,它有点像地狱。

I mean, it, you know, it's a little, it's a little like hell.

进去很容易,想出来却很难,非常难。

It's easy to get into and it's hard to get, very hard to get out of.

好,那就先这样,我们去吃午饭,半个小时左右以后我再在这儿见大家。

Well, with that, we'll go off to lunch and I'll see you here in another half hour or so.

谢谢。

Thanks.
M1
M19:17

谢谢。

Thank you.