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1999年股东大会 · 优秀的管理层和护城河很重要,但应该怎样给他们估值?

79 段 · 3 位说话人 · 原片 8:40
M1
M10:00

嗨,我叫 David Zielke,我现在住在 Washington 州的 Redmond,在那里我为你的一位好朋友工作。

Hi, my name is David Zielke, and I currently live in Redmond, Washington, where I work for one of your good friends.

所以要是我因为在一个忙碌的星期一请假没去上班而惹上麻烦,也许如果我给你打个电话,你可以帮我美言几句。

So if I get into trouble for having taken a busy Monday off work, maybe if I give you a call, you could put in a word for me.
M2
M20:12

如果是不带薪的,那我们可不会抱怨。

If it's without pay, we won't complain.
M1
M10:17

是休假。

It's vacation.

对,我的问题是,你们两位在给公司估值时,会看一些我知道你们很重视的无形因素,那你们是怎么给这些东西赋值的。

Yeah, my, my question is about how you two assign value to certain intangibles that I know you look at when you value companies.

任何读过你们文章的人都知道,你们会寻找优秀的管理层,还有你们所说的 economic moats,也就是能让公司提高价格和利润率的那些护城河。

Anyone who's read your writings knows that you look for great management and economic moats, as you call them, that enable companies to raise prices and margins.

我想请你们展开讲讲,告诉我们,在你们看来,优秀管理层和 economic moats 的标志分别是什么。

I'd like you to drill down with us and tell us what, to you, are the signs of great management and economic moats.

另外,你们在给公司估值时,会不会尝试把这些管理层、护城河以及其他无形因素换算成一个具体的 dollar value?

Furthermore, do you try to put a dollar value on those management and moats and other intangibles when you value companies?

如果会的话,能不能带我们了解一下你们这方面的思路?

And if so, can you guide us through your thinking there?

最后,我还想知道你们是怎么选择 discount rate 的。

And lastly, I'm interested in how you pick your discount rate.

其实我跟你们一样,也是商学院毕业的校友,我也学了一堆关于 beta 的垃圾玩意儿。

I'm actually an alma mater of yours from business school, and I learned a bunch of junk about beta too.

但我读到你们好像就是直接用 Treasury rate,我不确定这是不是对的,不过我很希望你们谈谈你们的 discount rate,也非常希望你们能尽可能详细地讲讲你们的思考过程。

But I read that you just assign the Treasury rate, and I'm not sure if that's right, but I'd love you to talk about your discount rate, and I'd really appreciate as much detail about your thinking as you can give us.
M2
M21:12

对,我们确实——我们是按 Treasury 来想的,但就像我前面说过的,这并不代表说,一样东西按 Treasury rate 折现以后,那就是我们应该支付的正确价格。

Yeah, we do— we think in terms of the Treasury, but as I said earlier, that doesn't mean we think once we've discounted something at the Treasury rate that that's the right price to pay.

我们用 Treasury rate,只是为了在不同时间之间、不同公司之间有可比性。

We use the Treasury rate just to get comparability across time and across companies.

但是,一家 horseshoe company 挣来的一 dollar,和一家 internet company 挣来的一 dollar,就 dollar 本身来说,是一样的。

But a dollar earned from a horseshoe company is the same as a dollar earned from an internet company in terms of the dollar.

所以它不会因为这个钱是来自一个叫 dot-com 的公司,或者来自一个老派的 horseshoe company,就更值钱。

So it is not worth more based on whether somebody's— it comes from somebody named dot-com, you know, or somebody named, you know, the old-fashioned horseshoe company.

这些 dollar 是相等的。我们的 discount rates 可能会反映不同的经验、对未来收入流不同的预期,但是它们并不会反映这样一种差别:这个钱到底是来自市场特别狂热追捧的东西,还是别的什么。

The dollars are equal, and our discount rates may reflect different experience, different expectations about future streams of income, but, but they don't reflect any difference in, in terms of whether it comes from something that the market is all enthused about or, or otherwise.

moat 和 management 是估值过程的一部分,因为它们会进入我们的判断,影响我们对未来那条收入流——实际上是现金流——的确定性评估,以及它的规模。

The, the moat and the management are part of the valuation process in that they, they enter into our thinking as to the degree of certainty that we attribute to the stream of income— stream of cash, actually— that we expect in the future, and the amount of it.

我的意思是,你知道,企业估值这件事,某种程度上是一门艺术。

I mean, it is, you know, it is, uh, it's an art, uh, in terms of valuation of businesses.

到最后公式其实很简单,但是如果你和我都在看 chewing gum 这个生意——大家都知道 Wrigley,所以我在课堂上经常拿 Wrigley 来举例。

The, the formulas get simple at the end, but, but if you and I were each looking at the chewing gum business— we all know Wrigley, so I use Wrigley's fairly often in class.

你先给我一个数字,说说你预计未来十年或者二十年里,chewing gum 的销量增长会是多少。

Pick a figure that you would expect unit growth of chewing gum, you know, to grow in the next 10 or 20 years.

再告诉我,你预计它有多大的定价灵活性,Wrigley 的市场份额被大幅削弱的风险有多大。

Give me your expectations on how much pricing flexibility you have, how much danger there is that Wrigley's share of market is dramatically reduced.

这些你都可以一项一项去分析。

You can go through all of that.

这也正是我们会去分析的东西。

That's what we go through.

那就是——而且在这个例子里,我们是在评估 moat。

That is— and in the— in that case, we are evaluating the moat.

我们也在评估 price elasticity,它会以某些方式和 moat 相互作用。

We are evaluating the price elasticity, which interacts with the moat in certain ways.

我们在评估未来单位需求发生变化的可能性。

We're evaluating the likelihood of unit demand changing in the future.

我们在评估管理层是会非常聪明地运用他们创造出来的现金,还是会非常愚蠢地把它用掉。

We're evaluating the likelihood of the management being either very bright with the cash that they develop or being very stupid with it.

所有这些,都会进入我们对未来这些年那条资金流会是什么样子的判断。

And all of that gets into our evaluation of what that stream of money looks like over the years.

但是,这项投资最后结果怎么样,取决于未来十年或二十年里,这条资金流会如何发展。

But the value of— how the investment works out depends on how that stream develops over the next 10 or 20 years.

我们今天早些时候收到过一个问题,里面对 Berkshire 可能会发生的情况做了一些假设,而那个提问的表述方式是完全对的。

We had a question earlier today that made certain suppositions about what could happen at Berkshire, and the formulation was exactly right.

至于该用哪些数字,那是另一个问题,但那个表述本身是恰当的。

The question of what numbers to use is another question, but the formulation was proper.

而那个表述里——护城河这个因素是要算进去的。

And that formulation—the moat enters into that.

如果你的护城河足够强、足够宽,那你就不需要那么多管理层的本事。

If you have a strong, big enough moat, you don't need as much management.

你知道,这就回到 Peter Lynch 那句评论了:他喜欢买那种好到连傻子都能经营的企业,因为迟早会有一个傻子来经营它。

You know, it gets back to Peter Lynch's remark that he likes to buy a business that's so good that an idiot can run it, because sooner or later one will.

嗯,就是——我的意思是,他说的其实是同一回事。

Well, that's—I mean, he was saying the same thing.

我的意思是,他真正喜欢的,其实是那种有惊人护城河、而且这条护城河根本不会出事的企业。

I mean, he was saying that what he really likes is a business with a terrific moat where nothing can happen to the moat.

而这样的企业其实并不多。

And there aren't very many businesses like that.

不过这样一来,你就会卷入对各种细微差别的判断和评估。

But then, so you get it, you get involved in evaluating all these shadings.

这个,不是 Cherry 版本,是普通版本,这个产品周围就有一道非常厉害的护城河。

This, not the Cherry version, but the regular version, this one has a terrific moat around it.

甚至连这个,你知道,连这个容器本身都有护城河。

There's a moat even in this, you know, in the container.

以前有人做过一项研究,看有多少人蒙着眼睛、光靠摸这个容器,就能认出自己手里拿的是什么产品;在这方面,能像 Coca-Cola 这样得分的产品并不多。

There was some study made as to what percentage of the people could identify blindfolded what product they were holding just by grabbing the container, and there aren't many that could score like Coca-Cola in that respect.

所以,这里你看到的是,这个产品已经占据了人们的心智。

So, here you've got a case where that product has a share of mind.

全世界有六十亿人。

There's 6 billion people in the world.

我不知道其中有多大比例的人,脑子里对 Coca-Cola 有某种正面的印象,但这个数字肯定非常庞大。

I don't know what percentage of them have something in their mind that's favorable about Coca-Cola, but it would be a huge number.

问题是,十年以后,这个数字会不会更大?

And the question is, 10 years from now, is that number even larger?

还有,对于那几十亿心里有这个印象的人来说,平均下来,这种印象会不会再稍微更正面一点?

And is the impression just a slight bit more favorable on average for those billions of people that have it?

而这才是这门生意的核心所在。

And that's what the business is all about.

如果它能按这种方式发展下去,那你就拥有了一家伟大的企业。

If that develops in that manner, you've got a great business.

我觉得它非常有可能就是这样发展的,不过这只是我个人的判断。

I think it's very likely to develop in that manner, but that's my own judgment.

我认为 Coca-Cola 的护城河非常宽。

I think it is a huge moat at Coca-Cola.

我觉得这会因世界上不同地区而有所不同,诸如此类。

I think it varies by different parts of the world and all of that.

而且我还认为,在此基础之上,它还有极其出色的管理层。

And I think on top of it, it has terrific management.

但是——你知道,并不存在什么公式,能精确地告诉你这些,不会有哪个公式说这条护城河有二十八英尺宽、十六英尺深,或者类似这种东西。

But that—there's no formula that gives you that precisely, you know, that says that the moat is 28 feet wide and 16 feet deep, you know, or anything of the sort.

你必须——

You have to—.
M3
M35:50

对。

Yeah.
M2
M25:50

你必须真正理解这些企业,而这正是最让学术派抓狂的地方,因为他们知道怎么计算 standard deviation,知道各种各样的东西,但那些并不能告诉他们任何真正有用的东西。

You have to understand the businesses, and that's what drives the academics crazy because they know how to calculate standard deviations and all kinds of things, but that doesn't tell them anything.

真正能告诉你东西的,是你得知道怎么判断这条护城河到底有多宽,以及它未来更可能继续变宽,还是反过来缩窄。

And what really tells you something is if you know how to figure out how wide the moat is and whether it's likely to widen further or shrink on you.

Charlie?

Charlie?
M3
M36:12

嗯,你对学术派的方法批评得还不够狠。

Well, you aren't sufficiently critical of the academic approach.

关于投资组合管理、公司金融之类的这种学院派方法,其实挺有意思的。

The academic approach to portfolio management, corporate finance, etc., etc., is very interesting.

它很像 Long-Term Capital Management。

It's a lot like Long-Term Capital Management.

怎么会有这么聪明的人,干出这么蠢的事呢?

How can people so smart do such silly things?

但事实偏偏就是这样。

And yet that's the way it is.
M2
M26:45

这真的是一本很值得写的书,就是,你知道,为什么聪明人会做蠢事?

That's the great book that needs to be written, really, is, you know, why do smart people do dumb things?

而且这件事特别重要,因为有很多聪明人在跟我们一起做事。

And it's terribly important because we've got a lot of smart people working with us.

而且,你知道,如果我们能把那些蠢事统统驱除掉,那接下来会发生什么,真是会让人惊讶。

And, you know, if we can just exorcise all the dumb things, you know, it's just amazing what'll happen.

某种程度上,Berkshire 的业绩,如果说还算不错的话,原因在于我们——不是因为我们做了什么特别高明的事,而更可能是因为我们犯的蠢事比大多数人少。

And to some extent, the record of Berkshire, to the extent it's been good, has been because we've—not because we've done brilliant things, but we've probably done fewer dumb things than most people.

但是,为什么聪明人会做出违背自身利益的事,这一点真的很让人费解。

But why smart people do things that are against their self-interest is really puzzling.

Charlie,你告诉我为什么。

Charlie, tell me why.
M3
M37:25

嗯,你可以说,学院派最糟糕的那种荒唐,最严重的就在那些顶尖大学的 liberal arts 院系里。

Well, you could argue that the very worst of the academic inanity is in the liberal arts departments of the great universities.

在那里,如果你问这样一个问题:什么样的一种心态,最可能对一个人的幸福、对他给别人带来的贡献,造成最大伤害,呃,哪一种心态是最糟的?

And there, if you ask the question, what one frame of mind is likely to do an individual the most damage to his happiness, to his contribution to others, uh, what one frame of mind will be the worst?

答案会是某种带着偏执的自怜。

And the answer would be some sort of paranoid self-pity.

我想不出还有什么心态比这个更有破坏性。

Couldn't imagine a more destructive frame of mind.

可现在你有整整一些系,想让每个人都觉得自己是受害者,而你还花钱把自己的孩子送到这种地方去,让他们教孩子这些东西。

Now you've got whole departments that want everyone to feel a victim, and you pay money to send your children to places where this is what they teach them.

这些非理性的东西,会一点点渗进这些声名显赫的地方,真是让人吃惊。

It's, it's amazing how these pockets of irrationality creep into these eminent places.

我喜欢 Berkshire 股东大会的一个原因,就是我在这里看到这种蠢人的概率更低。

One of the reasons I like the Berkshire meetings is I find fewer of those silly people.
M2
M28:35

他这是把主席台那桌的人排除在外了。

He excluded the head table from that.

二区。

Zone 2.