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1998年股东大会 · 巴菲特:人生成功的秘诀是错位竞争和降维打击

50 段 · 3 位说话人 · 原片 5:47
M1
M10:00

我们到那儿了吗?

Are we there?
M2
M20:01

到了。

Yes.

早上好,Buffett 先生,Munger 先生。

Good morning, Mr. Buffett and Mr. Munger.

我叫 Patrick Brown,来自 North Carolina 的 Charlotte。

My name is Patrick Brown from Charlotte, North Carolina.

我注意到,过去这几年,美国银行业的净资产收益率涨了不少。

And I've watched returns on equity for the banking sector in the U.S. go up a good bit over the last few years.

而且,一些主导行业整合的大型银行,它们的有形净资产收益率涨得更多。

And the returns on tangible equity for some of the major banks that have led the consolidation have gone up a good bit more.

这让我在想,这样的回报到底能不能持续,不管是短期,还是更长期,比如五年、十年以后。

It leads me to wonder whether these returns are sustainable over either the near term or the longer term, 5, 10 years out.
M1
M10:27

嗯,这就是那个六万四千美元的问题了,因为净资产收益率,尤其是这位先生提到的有形净资产收益率,特别是在银行业里,已经到了前所未有的水平。

Well, that's the $64 question, because the returns on equity, and particularly tangible equity, as the gentleman mentioned, and particularly tangible equity in the banking sector even, those returns have hit numbers that are unprecedented.

接下来的问题就是,如果这是前所未有的,那它是不是也就不可持续?

And then the question is, if they're unprecedented, are they unsustainable?
M3
M30:52

我们——

We—.
M1
M10:53

Charlie 和我大概都会觉得——我们当然更倾向于——我们不会基于“这些回报能够持续”这个前提来做决定。

Charlie and I would probably think the— we would certainly prefer— we would not base our actions on the premise that they are sustainable.

百分之二十以上的有形净资产回报,或者账面净资产回报,而有形净资产回报甚至还要高得多。

20%-plus returns on tangible equity, or on book equity, and much higher returns on tangible equity.

在银行业里,有不少企业按有形净资产来算,回报已经快接近百分之三十了。

In the banking field, you have a number of enterprises that on tangible equity are getting up close to the 30% range.

那么,在一个实际 GDP 可能只增长百分之三、名义 GDP 增长百分之四到百分之五的体系里,企业真的能持续稳定地赚到百分之二十的净资产回报吗?

Now, can a system where the GDP in real terms is growing maybe 3%, where in nominal terms it grows 4 to 5%, can businesses consistently earn 20% on equity?

如果它们把大部分利润都留存下来,那当然不可能,因为那样企业利润占 GDP 的比重会上升到荒谬的地步。

They certainly can't if they retain most of their earnings, because you would have corporate profits rising as a percentage of GDP to the point that would get ludicrous.

所以在这种情况下,你就必须有非常大的现金分配,不管是通过回购股票、发股息,还是通过并购也好,总之得让整个行业里的资本水平大体保持合理稳定。

So under those conditions, you'd either have to have huge payouts, either by repurchases of shares or by dividends or by takeovers, actually, that would keep the level of capital reasonably consistent among industry.

或者说——因为那种情况你根本维持不下去——假设每家公司都把全部利润留存下来,而且都能赚到百分之二十的净资产回报。

Or— because you couldn't sustain— let's just say every company retained all of its earnings and they earned 20% on equity.

那你不可能让企业利润作为整个经济的一部分,年复一年地按百分之二十增长。

You could not have corporate profits growing at 20% as a part of the economy year after year.

就回报水平而言,现实世界其实比我们原来预想的要好。

This has been a better world than we foresaw in terms of returns.

所以我们以前也判断错过,我们现在也不是在做什么预测;但我们不会愿意基于“这些回报会持续下去”这一点去买东西。

And so we've been wrong before, and we're not making a prediction now, but we would not want to buy things on the basis that these returns would be sustained.

我们去年就跟大家说过,如果这些回报能够持续,而且利率维持在现在这个水平,或者更低,那么整体来看,股票价格就是有道理的,我们现在还是这么认为。

We told you last year if these returns are sustained and interest rates stay at these levels or fall lower, that stock prices in aggregate are justified, and we still believe that.

但这里面有两个很大的“如果”,而在我看来,特别大的那个“如果”,就是关于净资产回报率和有形资产回报率这一点。

But those are 2 big ifs, and the particularly big if, in my view, is the one about returns on equity and on tangible assets.

要相信它们能持续下去,这显然是违背经典经济学理论的。

It goes against— certainly goes against classic economic theory to believe that they can be sustained.

Charlie,你怎么看?

Charlie, how do you feel about it?
M3
M33:04

嗯,我认为,净资产收益率上升,很大一部分原因,是 Jack Welch 那个理念越来越受欢迎了:如果你在某条业务线上做不到领先,那就退出。

Well, I think a lot of the increase in return on equity has been caused by the increasing popularity of Jack Welch's idea that if you can't be a leader in a line of business, get out of it.

然后呢,当一个行业里的参与者越来越少时,净资产收益率自然就会上去。

And, uh, as you get fewer people in the business, why, returns on equity can go up.

另外,现在按很高的每股价格去回购股票,也变得流行得多了。

Then it's gotten way more popular to buy in shares even at very high prices per share.

如果你靠回购把净资产压得足够低,那净资产收益率想做多高都行。

And if you keep the equity low enough by buying shares back, why, you can make return on equity whatever you want.

某种程度上,我们经历了一场缓慢发生的企业观念革命。

We've had, to some extent, a slow revolution in corporate attitudes.

不过 Warren 说得对,你不可能一边大规模累积留存收益,一边还持续在这些资金上赚到这么高的回报率。

And— but Warren is right, you can't have massive accumulations of earnings that are retained and keep earning these rates of return on them.
M1
M13:58

一个挺有意思的问题,是这么想一想。

An interesting question is to think about it.

如果你有五百个 Jack Welch,把他们都克隆出来,让他们去管理 Fortune 500 的所有公司,那美国企业的净资产收益率,会比现在更高,还是更低?

If you had 500 Jack Welches and they were cloned and they were running all of the Fortune 500 companies, would returns on equity for American business be higher or lower than they are presently?

我的意思是,如果你有——我是说,如果你有五百个特别厉害的竞争对手,他们当然都可以很理性,也确实会很理性,也都会很聪明,还会一直努力去做所有正确的事,但这里面会有一种彼此抵消的效果。

I mean, if you have—I mean, if you have 500 sensational competitors, they can all be rational, but that doesn't—and they will be, and they'll be smart, and they'll keep trying to do all the right things, but there's a self-neutralizing effect.

这就像有五百个国际象棋高手,或者五百个 bridge 高手。

It's like having 500 expert chess players or 500 expert bridge players.

他们凑在一起打比赛,最后照样还是会有很多输家。

You still have a lot of losers if they get together and play in a tournament.

所以,如果美国所有管理层一下子都强很多——先不考虑和外国企业的竞争——那净资产收益率会不会好很多,其实一点都不明确。

So it's not at all clear that if all American management were dramatically better, leaving out the competition against foreign enterprises, that returns on equity would be a lot better.

很可能反而会把回报压下去。

They might very well drive things down.

这在某种程度上,就是 securities markets 里很容易发生的事。

That's what, to some extent, can easily happen in securities markets.

在 securities markets 里,如果你的智商是一百,而其他参与的人都是八十,那可比你智商一百四、别人也全是一百四,要好得多。

It's way better to be in securities markets if you have 100 IQ and everybody else operating has an 80 than if you have 140 and all the rest of them also have 140.

所以——人生的秘诀就是,竞争要弱。

So it's—the secret of life is weak competition.

有人说,怎么才能打败 Bobby Fischer?

Somebody said, how do you beat Bobby Fischer?

你知道,就是跟他玩任何一种游戏,只要不是国际象棋。

You know, and you play him any game except chess.

那,打败 Jack Welch 也是这个道理。

Well, that's how you beat Jack Welch.

你跟他玩任何一种游戏,只要不是 business。

You play him any game except business.

不过我得说明一下,他高尔夫也打得非常好。

Although he's a very good golfer, I want to point out.

几个月前我见到他的时候,在一个非常难打的球场上,他打出了六十九杆。

He shot a 69 a few months ago when I saw him at a very tough course.

Jack 一年居然还能打七十到八十轮高尔夫,而且偶尔还能打到低于标准杆,同时还在 GE 做着他现在做的那些事。

Jack manages to play 70 or 80 rounds of golf a year and come in subpar occasionally while still doing what he does at GE.

他是个了不起的管理者。

He's a great manager.

但是,如果有五百个 Jack Welch,我一点也不确定这会让这个国家的股票更值钱。

But 500 Jack Welches, I'm not at all sure would make stocks more valuable in this country.

所以,这是一方面。

So on one.